Mailing List 'B' Respondent No. 5

Actual Freedom – Mailing List ‘B’ Correspondence

Richard’s Correspondence on Mailing List ‘B’

with Respondent No. 5

Some Of The Topics Covered

cruelty – benevolence – compassion – sorrow – etymology – Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti moved to tears – compassion is ‘pathos in common’ – Compassion/Karuna – labelling – not really patient – not peddling ideas – not off-topic stuff – a fundamental change by any criteria – discussing and investigating the teachings of Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti – not a try – indeed distinguishable from ideas – only ever seeing ideas – the only example

September 21 1999:

RESPONDENT No. 35: Richard, you have been diagnosed as psychotic. You are feeling great, wonderful, you’ve overcome all the human limitations, life is bliss to you. You may also know that one of the surest signs of severe mental illness is the inability to see and admit the serious symptoms. The person who is really mentally disturbed is the last to admit it, because he has a strong sense of being right versus everyone else being wrong or just dim. The grandiose feelings, feelings of being super-human give you great comfort in the world where the only certain thing is uncertainty. If/when you come back from your hallucination, you will have a long and painful journey to make. You will have to admit that you are no more or no less than any of us. You will feel pain that is beyond words. I just hope you’ll have help.

RESPONDENT No. 23: In a world of uncertainty, you sound pretty certain here. You are being cruel for its own sake. This is disturbing.

RESPONDENT: Coming from No. 23, this is utterly hilarious. Moreover, if Richard is as egoless as he asserts or psychotic as per No. 35’s remarkable intercontinental diagnosis, where is the cruelty perceived? Surely not in the eyes of an egoless man or of a psychotic who imagines he is an egoless man!

RICHARD: Irregardless of the issue of whether Richard is either egoless or psychotic – or actually free of the human condition as a third alternative – any cruelty, first and foremost, lies in the heart of the ‘giver’ and inevitably turns in on itself as existential sorrow. Thus, in the final analysis, it is the ‘giver’ who suffers the most intimately. As for the ‘receiver’ of any cruelty, it is entirely up to them what they do with it ... apart from physical cruelty, no-one can force their cruelty on another without the other’s acquiescence and compliance.

It is a truly and remarkably free world we live in!

September 23 1999:

RESPONDENT No. 37: By the way, I think questioning the supposedly benevolent intentions of others under the guise of ‘concern’ and ‘sympathy’ is a sign of health, not illness.

RICHARD: Sometimes it is helpful to work from the etymological roots of words ... and as the word ‘concern’ comes from the Latin ‘concernere’ (sift, distinguish) I would endorse it as an apt description of a sign of health, yes. But as ‘sympathy’ comes from the Greek ‘sym’ (together, alike) and ‘pathy’ (suffering, feeling) I am hard-pushed to see ‘suffering together’ or ‘feeling alike’ as a sign of health (similarly with ‘compassion’: the Latin ‘passio’ equals the Greek ‘pathos’ hence ‘together in pathos’). There is a widespread belief that suffering is good for you ... whereas in my experience the only good thing about suffering is when it comes to an end. Permanently.

RESPONDENT: Words evolve in common usage beyond their ‘etymological roots’, of which even the best communicators are seldom aware to the extent typical among pedagogues.

RICHARD: Yes.

RESPONDENT: Moreover, when we use English or other western language to translate from Sanskrit, Farsi, etc. we unavoidably lose much if not most of the sense the original words convey in their original contexts.

RICHARD: Yes, all the more reason to go back to the roots and proceed from there. I make full use of etymology dictionaries whenever I come across a Sanskrit (or whatever) word in a context wherein I am unaccustomed to seeing it used that way. Given that I have intimate experience of English words straying so much that they can come to mean pretty well what the speaker wishes, then the same holds true for other languages. Indeed, the following came in on the Buddha-L Mailing List only today (where scholastic pedagogy reigns supreme):

[quote]: ‘It is also to be remembered that Sanskrit was largely an oral rather than a written tongue, and plays upon words were common. Nobody took much note of accuracy when playing upon words (especially not in the ‘Classical’ era – examples from the Mahabharata can be easily given.) Indeed the same sort of thing is common in India even today. Who knows, in fact, whether the original was ‘Avalokiteshwara’ or ‘Avalokitesvara’ (or even ‘Avalokitasvara’)? I would venture to assert, nobody really knows. And after a while, a word in India is taken to mean whatever the listener wants it to mean, especially in argument. (Witness the transformations in the meaning of the word dharma over the ages, and the difference between the Hindu and Buddhist ways in which it is and was used.)’ [endquote].

The Post-Modernists may fondly think they are breaking new ground ... yet the hoary pundits have been fudging the issue for centuries.

RESPONDENT: To rely on etymological analysis in a multi-cultural forum is thus as likely mislead as to clarify, leading to an ilk of precision that amounts to a stilted linguistic fundamentalism.

RICHARD: Okay ... given that what I was saying above was that ‘suffering together’ is not a sign of health, what word or words would you use to convey a dispassionate consideration and care for one’s fellow human being if one is not to understand the affective roots of the commonly used words for such sensible concern ... such as ‘pity’, ‘sympathy’, ‘commiseration’, ‘solicitous’, ‘empathy’ and ‘compassionate’?

RESPONDENT: At their worst, such exercises are nothing more or other than the professor attempting to impress and intimidate the denizens of English 101. Pedantically.

RICHARD: Indeed, but at its best, such matter-of-fact practicalness is eminently worthwhile – it promotes clarity in thinking and communicating – and I am never interested in settling for second-best.

September 25 1999:

RESPONDENT No. 37: By the way, I think questioning the supposedly benevolent intentions of others under the guise of ‘concern’ and ‘sympathy’ is a sign of health, not illness.

RESPONDENT: Words evolve in common usage beyond their ‘etymological roots’, of which even the best communicators are seldom aware to the extent typical among pedagogues.

RICHARD: Yes.

[quote]: ‘It is also to be remembered that Sanskrit was largely an oral rather than a written tongue, and plays upon words were common. Nobody took much note of accuracy when playing upon words (especially not in the ‘Classical’ era – examples from the Mahabharata can be easily given.) Indeed the same sort of thing is common in India even today. Who knows, in fact, whether the original was ‘Avalokiteshwara’ or ‘Avalokitesvara’ (or even ‘Avalokitasvara’)? I would venture to assert, nobody really knows. And after a while, a word in India is taken to mean whatever the listener wants it to mean, especially in argument. (Witness the transformations in the meaning of the word dharma over the ages, and the difference between the Hindu and Buddhist ways in which it is and was used.)’ [endquote].

The Post-Modernists may fondly think they are breaking new ground ... yet the hoary pundits have been fudging the issue for centuries.

RICHARD: Okay ... given that what I was saying (above) was that ‘suffering together’ is not a sign of health, what word or words would you use to convey a dispassionate consideration and care for one’s fellow human being if one is not to understand the affective roots of the commonly used words for such sensible concern ... such as ‘pity’, ‘sympathy’, ‘empathy’, ‘commiseration’, ‘solicitous’ and ‘compassionate’?

RESPONDENT: Since ‘compassion’ in this forum is far more likely to be used in the sense Gautama Buddha (according to his supposed transcribers) used it in another language, if you insist on playing the scholar feel free to analyse the etymology of the original word Buddha (allegedly) uttered. The Greek and/or Latin origins of the translated word are in this case entirely irrelevant, as it is quite clear from context that Buddha had transcended personal suffering and thus was not ‘suffering together’ with anyone.

RICHARD: Of course I am free to go chasing about through etymological dictionaries to ‘analyse the etymology of the original word Buddha (allegedly) uttered’ – and I thank you for giving me permission – but I rather fail to see any reason to do so. As any sophomore worthy of their salt should know, this argument you put forward would easily fall under what is generally classified as ‘The Fallacy of Irrelevant Purpose’. If you cast your eagle eye up (to the top of the page) you will find that I was responding to what the writer saw as other posters on this Mailing List ‘questioning the supposedly benevolent intentions of others under the guise of ‘concern’ and ‘sympathy’. If you are now proposing that other posters on this Mailing List have ‘transcended personal suffering and thus are not ‘suffering together’ with anyone’ then you have done an abrupt about-face on your previously posted opinion of other posters’ accomplishments.

Until you can demonstrate this, then I will continue to work on the entirely reasonable assumption that they have not yet ‘transcended personal suffering’ and that therefore they are indeed ‘suffering together’ in their ‘concern’ and ‘sympathy’. And this ‘suffering together’ form of ‘concern’ and ‘sympathy’ is certainly evident in the post that prompted the writer to make this ‘by the way’ comment in the first place.

When I write I keep my response in context.

RESPONDENT: Of course you are far more familiar with English etymology, which you presented because it coincidentally served your rhetorical purpose. There is in my view no better English word than ‘compassion’ to describe ongoing sensitivity to suffering sans personal suffering. Given its evolved consensus meaning and implications it suffices at least as well as any alternative English offers.

RICHARD: Okay ... I will go with you in your irrelevant dissertation: seeing that this is a Mailing List set up under the auspices of the ‘Teachings’ brought into the world by Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti (who used the word ‘compassion’ frequently and with special emphasis on what he meant by it) then it would serve far better to use his example than speculate about what a long-dead deity such as Mr. Gotama the Sakyan may or may not have said or done (if he lived at all).

As Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti was sometimes moved to tears, becoming visibly distressed, when giving talks about human relationship (and as this is on tape no one will have to go chasing anywhere through any ancient scrolls) there is no evidence of dispassionate consideration and care. It would appear then that, seeing as at least one enlightened person puts lie to what you say above about the ‘ongoing sensitivity to suffering sans personal suffering’ meaning that you are trying to impose upon the word, it may be quite reasonable to consider that the etymology of ‘compassion’ (‘pathos in common’) still holds true despite your assurances that it has an ‘evolved consensus meaning and implications’ that makes it exempt from the meaning ‘suffering together’.

I am happy to explore any other irrelevancies you fancy to bring forward ... until then: given that what I was saying (further above) was that ‘suffering together’ is not a sign of health, what word or words would you use to convey a dispassionate consideration and care for one’s fellow human being if one is not to understand the affective roots of the commonly used words for such sensible concern ... such as ‘pity’, ‘sympathy’, ‘empathy’, ‘commiseration’, ‘solicitous’ and ‘compassionate’?

RESPONDENT: At their worst, such exercises are nothing more or other than the professor attempting to impress and intimidate the denizens of English 101. Pedantically.

RESPONDENT: It is clear that such a hypothetical ‘at its best’ scenario is mere wishful thinking in regard to your rhetorical use of English etymology in this instance.

RICHARD: But it is not clear at all ... if it is clear for you then might I suggest that you revisit your understanding of what sublimation and transcendence means?

RESPONDENT: The result is not even ‘settling for second-best’, it is a third-rate obfuscation of what ‘compassion’ has come to mean in matters of the human psyche and spirit, a pedant’s self-serving side trip that deservedly ended in a cul de sac.

RICHARD: Yet the word compassion ‘has come to mean in matters of the human psyche and spirit’ precisely what its etymology demonstrates ... unless you are proposing that Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti faked his tears and distress in an elaborate theatrical performance designed to deceive his audience into feeling that he truly cared?

The ‘cul de sac’ would appear to have no existence outside of your dour purview.

RESPONDENT: In your supposed effort to avoid ‘settling’, you have achieved your usual sound and fury – and signified nothing of any relevance.

RICHARD: You may very well be surprised to find just what is relevant and what is not, eh?

September 27 1999:

RESPONDENT: Since Richard’s latest face saving attempt is so weak as to not warrant refutation, it will get none from here.

RICHARD: Quite frankly, I did not expect you to throw in the towel so quickly ... and over such a simple issue, too. So, another shining light of the K-List bites the dust as he scurries for cover. Oh well ... c’est la vie, I guess.

RESPONDENT: One is reminded of nothing so much as ‘The Black Knight’ from ‘Monty Python and The Holy Grail’, limblessly challenging his perceived opponent while obviously unable to mount even a semblance of a pursuit.

RICHARD: Hmm ... methinks thou doest protest too much. What was that you were saying (above) about ‘saving face’?

RESPONDENT: What a waste of a first-rate vocabulary.

RICHARD: No ... nothing is wasted. From this day forward you will never again be able think of compassion without also thinking ‘pathos in common’ ... for I do have my ways and means of getting a fact established.

Nothing is ever wasted.

30 September 1999

[This post is off-topic.]

RESPONDENT No. 10: Damn Richard, why does my computer have a problem getting your messages. If I see it is from you I just delete it, given I get about 3 or 4 Java errors each time. However sometimes I delete an already read message and one form you is next, then the problem begins. Do you know why? It only happens with your messages?

RICHARD: Different software programmes make for different formats and sometimes strange effects result in the digital translation from one format to another. I had a similar situation to what you describe last year when E-Mails from one correspondent on this Mailing List persistently came through as size 16 font in ‘bold’ ... and then somehow made every other E-Mail that followed the same. The solution? I disabled the ‘consider as read within 5 seconds’ command and would delete the offending headers as they appeared in the preview pane without opening them (I could read them later in the archives). Eventually I unsubscribed (for other reasons) and these days I access all posts via the archives. As for the software I use, I am running Microsoft Office Suite 2000 Pro (supposedly the solution to the differing formats but not so) and send my E-Mails from ‘FrontPage 2000 through ‘Outlook 2000’ (as sending them from ‘Word 2000’ or direct from ‘Outlook 2000’ resulted in hieroglyphics instead of the higher ᴀsᴄɪɪ characters). Microsoft say they are ‘working on the problem’ ... I have tried some other programmes but unless I were to learn ᴜɴɪx or ʟɪɴᴜx they are not particularly better than Microsoft. This personal computer business is still in its ‘early days’ and maybe these issues will be resolved eventually ... or maybe not: look at the incompatibility of nuts and bolts (British Standard Fine (ʙsғ); British Standard Whitworth (ʙsᴡ); Unified Thread Standard (ᴜᴛs); Metric; and so on). In Australia, each state had differing rail gauges (width) in its early years which made for laborious change-overs of bogies in order to cross over the dotted lines! The same with plumbing, HiFi equipment; currency and so on and so on. It is a global village in name only yet. Despite its shortcomings it sure beats using postal mail or carrier pigeon, though. The almost instantaneous multiple feed-back capacity of a Mailing List is second to none.

RESPONDENT: One can easily skirt such incompatibilities by restricting the content of ones e-mails to plain text, this also helps keep down message size and thus conserves bandwidth. Quite a few users with older equipment can’t read anything other than plain text in any case, and very little is lost by the absence of fancy fonts and multi-coloured text in my opinion.

RICHARD: Indeed ... and while we are at it we might as well dispense with colour photography and colour movies as ‘very little is lost by the absence of multi-colour’. And then we might as well cut out the sound from movies and go back to sub-titles. And more ... we could dispense with modern cars (when one lifts the bonnet it is difficult to find the engine with all those glamorous attachments) and revert to a ‘Ford 10’, for example.

Or then again ... go back to the horse and cart as ‘this also helps to keep down’ pollution ‘and thus conserves’ resources). Goodness me ... there is no end to the things we could revert to, given that ‘very little is lost by the absence of [whatever personal hang-up]’. Let us dispense with computers altogether and go back to postal mail ... or carrier pigeon ... or a running man with a message stick.

But in the meanwhile, those ‘quite a few users with older equipment’ who ‘can’t read anything other than plain text’ could avail themselves to the opportunity presented by the monopoly-busting war started by ‘Netscape’ and download for free an E-Mail programme that is capable of reading something ‘other than plain text’. Speaking personally, I ran ‘Outlook Express’ (available free) on an older 75Mhz machine quite successfully before spending the cash on the full ‘Outlook 2000’ when I up-graded the hardware. In my experience, those who complain the most are still doggedly sticking to an earlier ‘nineties freebie (like ‘Eudora Lite’ or some-such programme) and refusing to come into the ’noughties (where all is bright and colourful).

Either that or the ‘Neo-Luddites’ of the cyber world need to unite so as to successfully stop progress ... whingeing gets one nowhere.

30 September 1999

[This post is off-topic.]

RICHARD: Indeed ... and while we are at it we might as well dispense with colour photography and colour movies as ‘very little is lost by the absence of multi-colour’.

RESPONDENT: Do you actually see your multi-coloured submissions as having some kind of aesthetic merit worthy of defence?

RICHARD: Aesthetic merit is in the eye of the beholder ... you cannot legislate for good taste

RESPONDENT: Or do you perhaps feel the vacuousness of your pompous prose requires graphic enhancements acting as camouflage via visual distraction?

RICHARD: As any sophomore worthy of their salt should know, this type of argumentation falls under the general category of ‘The Fallacy of Complex Question’ – sometimes known as ‘The Fallacy of Loaded Question’ (as in ‘have you stopped beating your wife/husband yet’) – and, as such, cannot be answered in any meaningful way.

RESPONDENT: The above is the most ridiculous ‘apples and oranges’ analogy I’ve read in at least a year. Congratulations!

RICHARD: It mayhap that you would care to rethink your perhaps hasty conclusion?

RICHARD: And then we might as well cut out the sound from movies and go back to sub-titles. And more ... we could dispense with modern cars (when one lifts the bonnet it is difficult to find the engine with all those glamorous attachments) and revert to a ‘Ford 10’, for example. Or then again ... go back to the horse and cart as ‘this also helps to keep down’ pollution ‘and thus conserves’ resources).

RESPONDENT: Some folks’ values don’t include sending a functioning PC to a landfill or stuffing their hard drives with tens of megabytes of Micro$soft bloatware in order to accommodate the enormous ego of a single contributor to a single mailing list.

RICHARD: Speaking personally, I do not ‘send a functioning PC to a landfill’ ... whatever gave you that notion? Nor do I have any political agenda about Mr. Bill Gates’ abundant wealth – as you seem to do – that makes me prejudiced.

RESPONDENT: Of well over 400 participants in the several mailing lists to which I subscribe you are the only one who insists on fancy submissions.

RICHARD: Presumably they (a) do not appreciate colour, italics, bold, underlining, justifying and so on ... or (b) you have browbeat them into compliance. Also, as any sophomore worthy of their salt should know, this type of argumentation falls under the general category of ‘The Fallacy of Consensus Gentium’.

RESPONDENT: And also the only one to react negatively to the suggestion that it might be a good idea (not to mention good manners) to use plain text instead.

RICHARD: I did not ‘react negatively’ ... I responded with positive suggestions as to how to keep up with the times. ʜᴛᴍʟ is here to stay, whether you approve or disapprove is besides the point. As for your somewhat desperate appeal to ‘good manners’, all I can say is that I am glad that I am not your children. Not only are you setting yourself up to be the arbiter of ‘good taste’ ... but ‘good manners’ as well. Must be all that ‘intrinsic morality’ (internalised Talmudic injunctions) that has sapped your intelligence, eh?

RESPONDENT: Fortunately, those preferring or restricted to plain text aren’t missing much at all.

RICHARD: Nobody, but nobody is ‘restricted to plain text’ ... ʜᴛᴍʟ-capable E-Mail programmes are available for free.

RICHARD: Goodness me ... there is no end to the things we could revert to, given that ‘very little is lost by the absence of [whatever personal hang-up]’. Let us dispense with computers altogether and go back to postal mail ... or carrier pigeon ... or a running man with a message stick.

RESPONDENT: These last few alternatives have the distinct virtue of giving you an audience of exactly the extent your ponderous yet sophomoric proclamations deserve.

RICHARD: Hmm ... what was that you were saying (above) about ‘the vacuousness of your pompous prose’?

RICHARD: But in the meanwhile, those ‘quite a few users with older equipment’ who ‘can’t read anything other than plain text’ could avail themselves to the opportunity presented by the monopoly-busting war started by ‘Netscape’ and download for free an E-Mail programme that is capable of reading something ‘other than plain text’.

RESPONDENT: The Netscape and M$ mail clients are ʜᴛᴍʟ-capable, but inferior in most other respects to many plain text competitors, including Eudora in my opinion.

RICHARD: Each to his/her own.

RESPONDENT: Incidentally, the latest version of the Juno mailer that I use is ʜᴛᴍʟ-capable – I can read your submissions perfectly, but find that colour and/or fancy fonts add nothing to the effect of informal correspondence and in fact comprise a distraction to its content.

RICHARD: If you are distracted so easily – and can only discern content when reading text-only – then it would appear that you have a problem that you are (unsuccessfully) attempting to dump onto me for a solution. Are you saying that the Internet at large is beyond your ken?

RESPONDENT: Even such venerable institutions as the New York Times send their e-mails in plain text on request.

RICHARD: Oh I see ... ‘venerable institutions’, eh? You know, for all of your rhetoric to No. 21 and No. 23 ... you show yourself to be rather old-fashioned and conservative when push comes to shove.

RESPONDENT: If you care about your readers you will do the same.

RICHARD: Once again ... I am glad I am not your children. This type of indoctrination is insidious.

RESPONDENT: And save the graphical and typographic enhancements for the World Wide Web, where they belong.

RICHARD: Who are you to decide where ‘graphical and typographic enhancements’ belong? Is this an example of how ‘intrinsic morality’ (internalised Talmudic injunctions) operates in the world?

RICHARD: Speaking personally, I ran ‘Outlook Express’ (available free) on an older 75Mhz machine quite successfully before spending the cash on the full ‘Outlook 2000’ when I up-graded the hardware. In my experience, those who complain the most are still doggedly sticking to an earlier ‘nineties freebie (like ‘Eudora Lite’ or some-such programme) and refusing to come into the ’noughties (where all is bright and colourful).

RESPONDENT: Not to mention entirely superfluous to written correspondence.

RICHARD: As I already explained in my previous post almost all enhancements are superfluous ... yet decorative effects are appreciated around the world; across cultural divides; down through history and by both gender ... unless one has a dour purview on life and seeks to impose that mindset upon others.

RESPONDENT: I can’t believe that even someone as richly deluded as you would bother posting such abjectly inane advice.

RICHARD: What on earth is ‘inane’ about providing a FREE solution to the problem? Are you for real?

RESPONDENT: Even a colour TV broadcast can be viewed on a monochrome receiver, and Internet e-mail is far earlier in its infancy than TV was when colour transmissions commenced. All told, I’d rate your comments as typically and superfluously ‘colourful’ but not too ‘bright’ at all.

RICHARD: You may rate my comments as much as you like, if that is what you get off on, but I am inspired to ask: are you a school-teacher by profession, perchance? If so, have you never heard that adage about remembering which hat one is wearing?

RICHARD: Either that or the ‘Neo-Luddites’ of the cyber world need to unite so as to successfully stop progress ... whingeing gets one nowhere.

RESPONDENT: Richard, I can respond only with superlatives.

RICHARD: So I noticed ... never mind, I am sure there are cures available. You could take night classes, perhaps?

RESPONDENT: You are more of an ass on more levels than anyone I’ve encountered on this list – and that includes some rather formidable competition I can assure you.

RICHARD: May I ask? Is that what all this is for you ... a competition?

RESPONDENT: If you are an example of post-enlightenment humanity I’d just as soon keep company with No. 21 and No. 23, they at least understand the communicative merit of steak and the irrelevance of unnecessary sizzle.

RICHARD: So I noticed.

September 30 1999:

RESPONDENT: Since Richard’s latest face saving attempt is so weak as to not warrant refutation, it will get none from here.

RICHARD: Quite frankly, I did not expect you to throw in the towel so quickly ... and over such a simple issue, too.

RESPONDENT: On the other hand, this attempt to draw me into wasting more time on the exchange was entirely predictable.

RICHARD: Am I to understand that you think that an investigation into the character, quality, nature or disposition of compassion (touted as a vital component of the spiritual cure-all for all the ills of humankind) is a waste of time?

Why?

RICHARD: So, another shining light of the K-List bites the dust as he scurries for cover.

RESPONDENT: Didn’t Nixon say something like this about General Giap as Saigon was being evacuated? The tactic is called ‘declaring victory’ and it’s taught in Face Saving 101.

RICHARD: Am I to understand that when a person who engages me in an irrelevancy to the thread and fails to match their rhetoric with substance, when I agree to digress from the topic, then fancies themselves as being successful ... and some kind of latter-day communist military commander into the bargain?

And not only that ... then attempts to cover their ineptitude with bombast and blather?

RICHARD: Oh well ... c’est la vie, I guess.

RESPONDENT: Guess to your heart’s content!

RICHARD: If you will not engage in discussion, on a topic that you introduced, then I have no other choice but to guess. If you will not converse in a reasoned and sensible way, then what do you expect of the other?

Mind reading?

RICHARD: Hmm ... methinks thou doest protest too much. What was that you were saying (above) about ‘saving face’?

RESPONDENT: See ‘declaring victory’, above.

RICHARD: You do not seem to ‘get it’ do you? This is a Mailing List purportedly set up to investigate the appalling mess that is the human condition ... and when someone presents an opportunity for you to explore (or at least re-examine your assumptions) you not only throw in the towel but seek to convince the other that it is they who are lacking the fortitude to continue and not you.

You are standing on very shaky ground.

RESPONDENT: What a waste of a first-rate vocabulary.

RESPONDENT: There was no dispute on the etymological fact, only on its relevance.

RICHARD: Yet you will not investigate further ... you are so thoroughly convinced that your declaration is ‘set in concrete correct’ that you attempt to browbeat the other into complying with your conclusion with pathetic attempts at ridicule (attempts like ‘one is reminded of nothing so much as ‘The Black Knight’ from ‘Monty Python and The Holy Grail’, limblessly challenging his perceived opponent while obviously unable to mount even a semblance of a pursuit’) as if god almighty has spoken.

In fact, your entire demeanour in this exchange, so far, reeks of your ‘intrinsic morality’.

RICHARD: Nothing is ever wasted.

RESPONDENT: Luckily, hot air is a recyclable resource.

RICHARD: So I noticed.

October 12 1999:

RESPONDENT: Don’t like being mirrored for a glib bag of hot air, for the facile dilettante you are, do you No. 23? The merest correction of fact sends you into paroxysms of clichéd bigotry. The venom of your largely feigned fury is matched only by the vacuousness of your rhetoric. You’re a shorter, yellower edition of Richard with a better feel for the colloquial and sans either the gumption or the eloquence to come out and say just what it is you’re selling. <SNIP>

RICHARD: It would appear that what you have reduced yourself to (since you back away from reasoned dialogue) is impotently sniping away at me from the side-lines. Then again ... maybe this is a classic example of the shortcomings of karuna.

In which case nothing more needs to be said.

October 12 1999:

RICHARD: It would appear that what you have reduced yourself to (since you back away from reasoned dialogue) ...

RESPONDENT: Whenever the limitations of ‘reasoned dialogue’ become apparent that is the only reasonable thing to do.

RICHARD: A reasoned dialogue has no limitations ... unless you are of that school of thought that says, with finality: ‘The Truth cannot be known’. Thus you shut the door on investigation and uncovering; upon exploration and discovery. And a closed door perpetuates all the wars and murders and rapes and tortures and domestic violence and child abuse and suicides forever and a day.

RICHARD: ... [what you have reduced yourself to] is impotently sniping away at me from the side-lines.

RESPONDENT: Actually, by comparison you are quite forthright and my comment amounted to praise, albeit faint. I’m sorry you took it as ‘sniping’.

RICHARD: Seeing that you were stating loud and clear that the person you were corresponding with was a ‘shorter, yellower edition of Richard’ because, in your opinion, he was a ‘facile dilettante’ and ‘a glib bag of hot air’ full of ‘clichéd bigotry’ and ‘vacuousness of rhetoric’ then in no way can I see it as ‘amounting to praise’ ... albeit ‘faint praise’. And as you purport to be an editor, who must have some idea how a sentence is structured within a paragraph, you do not fool me with this dissimulation ... given that, according to you in past monologues, what I am ‘quite forthright’ with is ‘sophomoric palaver’ and ‘pompous prose’ and so on.

You simply make yourself look more and more silly with each post.

RICHARD: Then again ... maybe this is a classic example of the shortcomings of karuna.

RESPONDENT: Speculate to your heart’s content.

RICHARD: Yet it was yourself who lectured me not so long ago upon the ‘irrelevance’ of Latin and Greek based taxonomy – and insisted that your ‘compassion’ was of the Buddhist model – so I am not ‘speculating to my heart’s content’ but following your instructions. Be that as it may, seeing as how you will not engage in reasoned discussion about your assumptions, you leave me with no alternative but to work out what motivates you from the evidence of your modus operandi.

And it is chock-full of shortcomings.

RICHARD: In which case nothing more needs to be said.

RESPONDENT: On this I can agree, regardless of ‘which case’ is involved.

RICHARD: But you did say more ... so your ‘agreement’ is worthless as well.

October 13 1999:

RICHARD: It would appear that what you have reduced yourself to (since you back away from reasoned dialogue) ...

RESPONDENT: Whenever the limitations of ‘reasoned dialogue’ become apparent that is the only reasonable thing to do.

RICHARD: A reasoned dialogue has no limitations ... unless you are of that school of thought that says, with finality: ‘The Truth cannot be known’.

RESPONDENT: I am of no ‘school’ whatsoever.

RICHARD: I used the ‘school of thought’ phrase as an expression and was not implying that you subscribed to a particular ‘school’ at all. I meant mysticism in general ... a libertarian ‘all paths lead to the same ‘Ineffable Unknowable Truth’’ approach.

RESPONDENT: The truth can be perceived and embodied, but a million years of ‘reasoned dialogue’ will not bring it to you or you to it.

RICHARD: Then why are you (and others for that matter) on this Mailing List? Whenever anyone comes close to actually discussing something of import ... out comes this ‘cannot be known; cannot be spoken’ put-down.

RESPONDENT: That which cannot be expressed cannot be remembered and thus does not qualify as knowledge, which is merely stored data

RICHARD: If I may point out? Whether you belong to any school or not is now beside the point, for you are clearly saying that it cannot be known and it cannot be spoken either. Which is pretty well what all the ‘schools’ say anyway.

RESPONDENT: No ‘school’ can teach this, one has to take ‘reasoned dialogue’ (or whatever ilk of thought one has fashioned into an idol) out to the end of its tether and observe its inevitable and utter failure.

RICHARD: In other words: ‘thought must stop for the Other to be’ or ‘a Transmission outside of the Scriptures’ and so on. Hence your dogmatic refusal to investigate and uncover; to explore and discover.

Yet a reasoned dialogue has no limitations ... except when you are saying, with finality: ‘The Truth cannot be known: cannot be spoken’.

RICHARD: Thus you shut the door on investigation and uncovering; upon exploration and discovery.

RESPONDENT: Been there, done that.

RICHARD: Oh, how quickly you say that. Okay ... where have you been and what have you done?

RESPONDENT: If there is to be ‘exploration and discovery’ in dialogue, it will be with someone who demonstrates the requisite insight into the human condition.

RICHARD: As the ‘requisite insight’ amounts dutifully believing that ‘The Truth cannot be known’ and ‘The Truth cannot be spoken’ then no wonder you will not enter into a reasoned discussion with me. And this makes it abundantly clear why you have reduced yourself to impotently sniping away at me from the side-lines.

You have nothing else to say.

RICHARD: And a closed door perpetuates all the wars and murders and rapes and tortures and domestic violence and child abuse and suicides forever and a day.

RESPONDENT: The door is utterly open, even to hot air, there is simply no compulsion to add to it.

RICHARD: Good ... will you explain to me, then, this outstanding difference you claim lies between the affective experience that the Latin and/or Greek based word for the sublimated and transcended personal sorrow (Compassion) refers to and the affective experience that the Sanskrit and/or Pali word for the sublimated and transcended personal sorrow (Karuna) refers to?

RICHARD: ... [what you have reduced yourself to] is impotently sniping away at me from the side-lines.

RESPONDENT: Actually, by comparison you are quite forthright and my comment amounted to praise, albeit faint. I’m sorry you took it as ‘sniping’.

RESPONDENT: Although neither of you have anything of substance or interest to say, I find you more respectable in that you come out and state your case ...

RICHARD: Why are you so glibly avoiding the issue? You stated, loud and clear that the person you were corresponding with was a ‘shorter, yellower edition of Richard’ because, in your opinion, he was a ‘facile dilettante’ and ‘a glib bag of hot air’ full of ‘clichéd bigotry’ and ‘vacuousness of rhetoric’ and I bring it to your attention that in no way can I see it as ‘amounting to praise’ – albeit ‘faint praise’ – and what do you do? You still suffer from the delusion that you are honouring me. Why not just look at what you write for this once – actually read your own writing – and see for yourself what you are doing.

RESPONDENT: ... you actually claim to have the key to peace for our species in the form of your personal perceptual state.

RICHARD: Yep ... I provide substance to the words that I write, and can back any statement I make with a reasoned, sensible and practical discussion. I can (and do) provide quotes to demonstrate the validity of my observations in the context of current and past human experience ... and can even point to the empirical evidence being provided by today’s neuro-science that makes the ‘ancient wisdom’ that you (and others) espouse redundant.

You see, I opened the door to further investigation and exploration.

RESPONDENT: No. 23 is one of the more skilled posters on this list and as far as I’m concerned you ought to be honoured to be considered in the same sentence with him.

RICHARD: How on earth is it that I ‘ought to be honoured’ by comparison with someone who, in your opinion, is a ‘facile dilettante’ and ‘a glib bag of hot air’ full of ‘clichéd bigotry’ and ‘vacuousness of rhetoric’? Are you for real?

RESPONDENT: If you actually take umbrage at any of this ...

RICHARD: As I do not ‘take umbrage at any of this’ I will treat it as the red-herring that it is ... and also dispense with your erroneous conclusions that follow – drawn from this false premise – in a like manner.

RESPONDENT: ... that says a good deal more about your purported transcendence of the notions of ‘ego’ and/or ‘soul’ than it does of my observations concerning your prose.

RICHARD: As I have never, ever said that I have ‘transcended’ anything (and repeatedly point to transcendence as being a band-aid solution applied from within the human condition) then for all of your huff and puff (further above) about having ‘been there; done that’ it is patently clear that you have not.

This is what I meant by ‘shutting the door’.

RESPONDENT: Why is my view of you of any concern at all, given your supposedly thoroughly transcendent consciousness?

RICHARD: You see? Again you show your limitations by your use of ‘thoroughly transcendent consciousness’ ... which shows that all your ridicule of me is based on ignorance. It would appear that you have not read what I write as this issue of transcendence is central to what I have to say. Therefore, all your fulminations (such as ‘empty rhetoric’ and ‘sophomoric palaver’ and ‘pompous prose’ and so on) are based on not actually reading what Richard has to say.

I will ask you once more: Where have you been? What have you done?

RICHARD: You simply make yourself look more and more silly with each post.

RESPONDENT: Opinion noted.

RICHARD: Your notebook must be bulging by now ... seeing that this is your stock-standard non-response whenever someone comes close to correctly questioning your ‘(ass)umptions[tm]’ about yourself.

RICHARD: Then again ... maybe this is a classic example of the shortcomings of karuna.

RESPONDENT: Speculate to your heart’s content.

RESPONDENT: As I stated previously, speculate to your heart’s content.

RICHARD: Do you see? Although you say ‘the door is utterly open’ it is not. What makes you dismiss something so pertinent in such a cavalier manner?

RICHARD: In which case nothing more needs to be said.

RESPONDENT: On this I can agree, regardless of ‘which case’ is involved.

RICHARD: But you did say more ... so your ‘agreement’ is worthless as well.

RESPONDENT: I’ll let this puddle-shallow one-upmanship speak for itself.

RICHARD: I can assure you that I am not interested in anything so pathetic as ‘one-upmanship’ ... I am vitally interested in peace on earth. I actually meant what I said: I was pointing out the shortcomings of what you fondly imagine to be a valuable contribution to what this Mailing List is purportedly set up for. To wit: to investigate into the mess that is the human condition. You bought into a discussion I was having with another correspondent to give me a lecture on compassion ... and steadfastly refuse to discuss whether what you say is valid. Vis.: [Respondent]: ‘My only objective was to point out the utter and equally self-serving irrelevance of the English etymology of the word ‘compassion’. Beyond that I no interest in further correspondence’. [endquote]. Yet, as I said (above) you did say more ... and more of the same ‘I ain’t gunna discuss it with you’ attitude that you take. And why do you have this attitude? Simple: Richard does not believe in what you believe. Vis.: [Respondent]: ‘If there is to be ‘exploration and discovery’ in dialogue, it will be with someone who demonstrates the requisite insight into the human condition’. [endquote].

Consequently, instead of exploring and uncovering, investigating and discovering you have reduced yourself to impotently sniping away at me from the sidelines.

RESPONDENT: You can do anything you please with my agreement, including labelling it as ‘worthless’ or flushing it down the loo.

RICHARD: I did not merely ‘label’ it as worthless for it was (and still is) worthless ... as an easily observable fact. And it is such a cheap undergraduate shot (to classify someone’s observations as mere ‘labelling’) that I wonder at you falling for it ... what with you being such a self-appointed expert on what ‘empty rhetoric’ looks like and all. Let me put it simply: for all of your faith in the ‘intrinsic embodied law’ your precious Buddhist model of compassion has not brought about peace on earth for all of its (supposed) 2,500 year existence.

Do you wish to find out why?

September 03 2000

[This post is off-topic.]

RICHARD: I was off-line for 8-10 days due to an all-of-a-sudden revamp of my entire system ... [snip]. There was much backing-up of data, reformatting of hard-drives, installing a hub, replacing network cards and cables and then configuring and tweaking everything and so on. Consequently I have not written anything at all to anyone at all for a few weeks.

RESPONDENT No. 40: But your Impeccable Highness, you have written 9 posts in the last 10 days to another mailing list since coming back on line! The first beginning July 24. So much for Actual Honesty. How can you advocate self immolation for Actual Freedom, where you say ‘there is no compromise possible here in this Actual World ... nothing ‘dirty’ can get in’ and still blatantly lie like this?

RESPONDENT: I’m sure ‘His Majesty King Actual I’ will reply at great length, and in a colour-coded font that is impossible for anyone past the age of forty to read without resorting to spectacles or other technical means of extreme magnification.

RICHARD: Opinion noted.

Plus here is a one-off literary

masterpiece on my part

especially designed so that

you will be able to read this

and see how peculiar it all is

trying to satisfy each and every

one’s desires.

But as one should not strain one’s

eyes trying to read sophomoric

palaver anyway you may as well

disregard this entirely.

I have already.

September 03 2000

[This post is off-topic.]

RICHARD: Opinion noted. Plus here is a one-off literary masterpiece on my part especially designed so that you will be able to read this and see how peculiar it all is trying to satisfy each and everyone’s desires. But as one should not strain one’s eyes trying to read sophomoric palaver anyway you may as well disregard this entirely. I have already.

RESPONDENT: Forget it, Richard – even with the sarcastic typography change, you’re still a verbose, conceited boor recycling tripe using an excellent selection of words.

RICHARD: Golly gosh ... some complimentary words (as in your "an excellent selection of words" phraseology) for a change, eh?

RESPONDENT: If you’re going to ape someone else’s choice of column width, you should also notice that it works best with short paragraphs, not with your usual long-winded and literally incredible assertions of a perceptual mode unique to our species. In Journalism 101 it’s referred to as ‘the easy eyeful’ – keep both dimensions within the natural field of vision and use a font large enough avoid eye fatigue.

RICHARD: Hmm ... you obviously missed reading my "here is a *one-off* literary masterpiece on my part" conditioner in your rush to give forth of your obviously extensive instructional repertoire.

Thanks, but no thanks (each to their own style).

RESPONDENT No. 40: Not to mention that spontaneous ever fresh and new quality of Actual Freedom – repetition ad nauseam. LOL.

RICHARD: I have been criticised before for copying and pasting ... yet all that is going on is that if I have previously written comprehensively and completely on that particular topic I have nothing further to add. I can only re-phrase the same thing in but a few ways. also, sometimes some people ask a rearranged version of the same question ... which tells me that that they did not read the original answer with both eyes. So I deliberately resend it (this response is a copy and paste as well). Also I have no idea whether what I wrote to person ‘A’ was read by person ‘B’ or how much someone has read of what I have written before ... or understood. Sometimes something sinks in only upon the umpteenth reading anyway. it certainly is not laziness on my part ... I like words and thoroughly enjoy talking and writing.

RESPONDENT: Me too, but I manage not to overdo either.

RICHARD: There were a mere 62 words in my one-off literary masterpiece and yet you still cannot refrain from instructing me not to ‘overdo’ it.

RICHARD: As for spontaneity and the ever-new freshness of an actual freedom ... it is being right here just now at this moment in eternal time and this place in infinite space as this particular arrangement of perpetual form that is novel ... and not what I do or say or write.

RESPONDENT: There’s nothing ‘novel’ about what can be gleaned of your perceptual state from your writing.

RICHARD: To attain to spiritual enlightenment/ mystical awakenment the ‘I’ as ego dies (the resultant egoless state of being is the end goal of all religio-spiritual/ mystico-metaphysical seeking); to become actually free from the human condition ‘me’ as soul also dies (i.e., identity in toto becomes extinct; as dead as the dodo, in fact, but with no skeletal remains).

Put differently: there are no ashes extant for any phoenix to arise from.

RICHARD: My lifestyle is one of suburban domesticity ... what some call living in a rut. Yet doing the same thing over and again without it every being dull or boring is what freedom is all about.

RESPONDENT: So, you’re a admittedly typical suburbanite who’s content with his lot in life and you have a first-rate vocabulary – and you respond to offhanded, light-hearted (mine, not Skye’s) criticism like a teenager laughed at in a locker room for deficient genital bulk.

RICHARD: No, not a ‘typical suburbanite’ (since when has it been ‘typical’ of anybody – be they ‘suburbanite’ or not—to be freed from the instinctual passions/ the feeling-been formed thereof)?

Incidentally, you may kid yourself about your ‘criticism’ being extemporaneous (the word ‘offhanded’ can also mean ‘casually thoughtless or inconsiderate’ according to Princeton’s WordNet 3.0) and light-hearted, yet any constructive read-through your nugatory posts to this and other forums reveals a tightly-held defensive posture.

RESPONDENT: Is this you as an exemplar of the new ilk of humanity we should all aspire to, the very key to peace on earth?

RICHARD: Aye, freely doing the same thing over and again without it every being dull or boring is indeed exemplary of the new class of humankind all would be well-advised to aspire to – the very key, in fact, to peace-on-earth, in this lifetime, as this flesh-and-blood body.

Well done, you spotted it in one.

June 15 2001:

RESPONDENT No. 19: K’s use of the phrase ‘emptying the content of consciousness’ means emptying that vessel which will again be awareness – ‘awareness’ being that ‘which is’, which is a perceptual (living) state – meditation. K used words in an attempt to depict a state of being – a moving thing. That in itself is extremely difficult, but he did it in hundreds of different ways; so that if one didn’t understand it one way, perhaps one could understand it in another way. That has been a cause for many to see contradiction in his teaching. Oh, the patience he had: infinite.

RESPONDENT: Let’s not fawn quite so eagerly over the old man. As per several who had personal contact with him, he really wasn’t all that patient a fellow and was known to complain in private about people he treated collegially in public. The phrase ‘emptying the content of consciousness’ is also somewhat of a conundrum what taken in the context of ‘the observer is the observed,’ which points toward ‘consciousness’ and its ‘content’ as one and the same. What then remains of ‘consciousness’ given the proposed ‘emptying?’

RICHARD: What then remains is ‘a fellow’ who ‘really wasn’t all that patient and was known to complain in private about people he treated collegially in public’.

October 19 2001:

RESPONDENT No. 19: Surely, you jest. LOL.

RESPONDENT No. 33: No jest grandma. Please stop peddling Transformation-whore-house ware on this forum.

RESPONDENT: Why would she do that? Other people – e.g. Richard – are peddling their own ideas of what comprises transformation here without any advice to ‘stop’ from No. 33, why pick on ‘grandma?’

RICHARD: If I may point out? I am not peddling my own ‘ideas’ of what comprises ‘transformation’ ... I can and do provide annotated quotes from accredited sources when discussing such a topic. And, generally speaking, I quote the words of acknowledged enlightened beings (Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti, Mr. Gotama the Sakyan and so on) so the words are drawn from their own experience and are not necessarily their ‘ideas’ either.

Plus I draw upon eleven years of a then daily experiencing of such a ‘transformation’ ... again not ‘ideas’.

RESPONDENT: Why concern yourself with it at all, given that this is an unmoderated forum where all manner of outright off-topic stuff is posted virtually every day?

RICHARD: I would be interested to see how you could demonstrate and thus substantiate that I post ‘outright off-topic stuff’ ... here is the topic according to the List Owner:

• [quote]: Welcome! ... Purpose Of The List: Listening-l is a forum for people to discuss and investigate the teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti in relation to their daily problems and their understanding of life. Krishnamurti (1895-1986) is known as a world teacher who rejected organizations, religions and beliefs. He held numerous talks and conversations the world over and wrote many books, investigating what meaning being human has, the nature of the self, delving into love, religion, belief, relationship, death, thought, time, fear, envy, meditation, beauty etc. Everybody is welcome to the list who has a serious interest in deeply questioning him/herself and the world we live in. It is not necessary to be familiar with Krishnamurti’s teachings, although these teachings will probably prove of interest to anyone who is open to fundamental change and ready to investigate the fundamental questions, as well as their own selves. This list is unmoderated. (Listening-L Mailing List Introduction [V2.0.2/27 Jan 97]).

I do not see the word ‘transformation’ anywhere at all in the clearly articulated ‘Purpose Of The List’ which I received when I subscribed ... only ‘fundamental change’. And the on-going experiencing that I peddle virtually ever day on this Mailing List, which I call an actual freedom from the human condition, is the direct result of a fundamental change by any criteria.

And I certainly [quote] ‘discuss and investigate the teachings of Jiddu Krishnamurti’ [endquote] quite consistently.

October 19 2001:

RESPONDENT No. 19: Surely, you jest. LOL.

RESPONDENT No. 33: No jest grandma. Please stop peddling Transformation-whore-house ware on this forum.

RESPONDENT: Nicely worded try, Richard ...

RICHARD: It is not a ‘try’ (be it ‘nicely worded’ or not) ... I am entirely sincere and what I wrote above is factual.

RESPONDENT: ... but as long as we are communicating in words, what we express is indistinguishable from ideas ...

RICHARD: You would be better off speaking for yourself ... what I communicate in words is indeed distinguishable from ‘ideas’ (for those who read with both eyes open).

RESPONDENT: ... unless/until there is corroborating experience on the part of the reader indicating otherwise.

RICHARD: Not necessarily. I present a reasoned argument, substantiated by accredited quotes, that can be grasped intelligently without any corresponding experience – which comprehension can certainly clear the way for a corroborating experience – and all done by words (there is no transmission outside of the scriptures needed for an actual freedom from the human condition). Of course those who approach my writing with the pre-conceived conclusion that all words are of necessity ‘ideas’ will only ever see ‘ideas’ ... thus they close the door on any intelligent comprehension and a possible corroborating experience.

Incidentally ... the moment there is a corroborating experience that person is summarily dismissed as a follower.

RESPONDENT: I’m sorry you got the impression that I see your posts as off-topic, that was not my intent. I was simply wondering why No. 33 saw fit to admonish No. 19 but was utterly silent about material that was egregiously off-topic.

RICHARD: Yet the only example you gratuitously provided in your preamble was ‘e.g. Richard’.

RESPONDENT: You are not among the culprits in that regard in my opinion.

RICHARD: I am glad that matter has been cleared up then.

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