Actual Freedom – Audio-Taped Dialogues

R: Do you find, now, that there is much more to investigate, explore, uncover, discover and reveal than ever before?

Q(1): I am discovering one thing after another. It’s a sort of: ‘Oh! I didn’t know that I was like this!’ It just goes on and on.

R: And being here, does it not look, initially to be ‘out of this world’? And yet it is not an airy-fairy, impractical ‘un-real’ world.

Q(1): It’s not covered with a spiritual coating. This is practical. It works! And I can do it.

R: I have been reading, recently, of a spiritual master who thinks himself to be God On Earth, and it reminds me of things I have read over the years about worship and adoration. It appears to be that it is in the human character to want to worship and adulate. Reverence seems to be part of the make-up of being human.

Q: Yet it’s all against being an individual.

R: It is an easy way out of the human dilemma. It is part and parcel of the make-up of the human condition.

Q: The human constitution.

R: Constitution, yes. It is an easy way. Some deluded fool says ‘I am IT’ and people say ‘Okay, I will worship ‘That’ and He or She will do all the work’.

Q(1): Just like [another visitor, previously here] said when she grasped what you were on about: ‘Oh, you mean I will have to do some work on myself?’ That is the essence of the spiritual path ... that ‘Someone’, either here on earth or ‘Somewhere Else’ will do it for you.

Q: That’s what they promise too: ‘Come with me through the Fire’ or something similar. ‘I will take you through the Fire’. Remember?

Q(1): ‘There will be a candle, a flame ignited which will flash around the world’ ... wonderful poetry.

Q: Once again, it is the old way ...

R: It has been the only way.

Q: It has been the only way, so far. Actually, everyone would like there to be peace on earth, everybody being together, but it has never happened. Their method has been an unrealistic picture.

Q(1): The extraordinary thing is that anything ‘new’ is just a repetition of the past; If you look at it there is nothing new in it at all. It is all so known.

Q: Yet they call it the ‘unknown’. They call it new but it is still a god by some other name.

Q(1): ‘The Truth’ with a capital ‘T’.

Q: Devotion and worship to ‘That’ has simply not worked ... it is the wrong path altogether.

Q(1): The good thing for me was at some stage realising that I was born into Western religion and I gave that up and took on the whole Eastern thing and now I see it is the same thing. The Eastern thing is a religion. Essentially spirituality is a religious thing. Enlightenment, Truth, Consciousness ... it is all the same thing.

Q: Yet the Eastern religion is seen to be superior to the Western.

Q(1): Well they had the mystique, the mysticism ...

Q: At least in the East you could become enlightened. In the West the best you could hope for is to become a saint ... become a martyr.

R: The enlightened person has lost their ego ... something profound happens. In the West the ego has become humbled. Yet even in enlightenment the deep meditative state does not happen all the time. They say they are living in bliss; yet bliss – or ecstasy – waxes and wanes. The intensity can increase or diminish. They have only transcended the opposites, you see, not eradicated them. They live in a state of ‘Oneness’ with everything ... yet they are alone. They all say that they are in a state of ‘Aloneness’. Not loneliness ... ‘Aloneness’. The feeling of ‘Oneness’ – and it is a feeling – is essential to bridge the distance between separate selves. It all feels hunky-dory, as you may imagine.

In my own personal experience of being enlightened for eleven years it is that everything is fine, glorious; yet from time to time there would be what I called ‘extreme’ moments where I would experience life like ... like I am experiencing it right now. But that would be an extreme state of enlightenment. I wondered, at the time, how this was possible to be lived twenty four hours a day. I doubted that I would be capable of operating and functioning.

Q(1): So you had oneness, bliss, and you saw something beyond that?

R: Something beyond enlightenment ... beyond bliss, beyond love, beyond transcendence. And I am sure ‘They’ have all experienced that from time to time.

Q(1): Which is why they talk about ‘Beyond Enlightenment’.

R: They do not think it possible here on earth. The Buddhists call it ‘Parinirvana’ and the Hindus call it ‘Mahasamadhi’ and you can only achieve that after physical death. That was the way I experienced it during those eleven years when I would have those moments and I would think: ‘Whoa! This is ‘Something Else’ entirely!’ and I wondered if I could do it. Could I live this? I was determined to find out whether it could be lived or not ... it was very scary and so final to contemplate taking that ultimate step. And not only that, it goes against the whole thinking ... all the teachings are quite clear about that. For example, Mr. Gotama the Sakyan would not take that final step whilst there was still suffering sentient beings.

Q(1): That was the whole thing about being the ‘Compassionate One’. He wouldn’t go through the gates until the very last person had come through.

R: That is it. They fully acknowledge that he had not gone all the way ... they have made a virtue out of it. That is where I had to dig into what I then called ‘The trap of Compassion’. Compassion was keeping me trapped in the world of enlightenment. From that position it seemed utterly selfish to go all the way. That is what I had to wrestle with over the years ... that if I went that way, I would be doing it only for me. Finally, having the courage of my convictions, having taken that last step, I can sit here right now and experience myself as being with other people one hundred per cent. It is the very best thing one can do for others ... not to mention oneself.

Mr. Gotama the Sakyan should not have dawdled, tarried ... because there has been untold suffering since then that has been all unnecessary. Wars, rapes, murders, tortures, corruption ... the list is endless. If he had gone all the way there would probably be peace on earth by now. That was two and a half thousand years ago, remember. Plenty of time for everyone to become free.

Q(1): So by his act of Compassion, it proved to be, in the end, to ...

R: To perpetuate all the suffering and sorrow ... and all the bloodshed .

Q: That’s one of the best insights I have ever had. That the highly esteemed Compassion actually perpetuates sorrow. That was such a breakthrough.

Q(2): There is a lot of inequality in Compassion.

R: This is a fascinating subject. This is us ... this is us living. And not only that, it is all of us human beings ... five billion of us. Then again, not only that too: there is all the people who have ever lived, going back thousands and thousands of years. The human race has been struggling with this dilemma for millennia. Yet we can sit here, quietly, on this lovely evening, calmly discussing matters of earth-shattering importance. Is this not wonderful? Is this not living fully? Investigating together. Exploring and discovering, querying and finding out, inquiring and uncovering. We are actually doing this. This is happening now.

How is it for you? [To Q(1).]

Q(1): There is this whole process happening. It’s fascinating because it is so overwhelming to realise ... I have one realisation after another rushing through me ... things are going so fast.

Q: Yet it’s going over time and it is you who sets the pace, nobody else sets the pace you go at. And the circumstances allow you opportunities.

R: A momentum takes over once one sets it all in motion, however.

Q: Oh yes. You make a curious decision to ‘do it’ and a momentum takes over. You realise you’ve embarked already.

R: Once you have that impetus going you can not ‘un-set’ the pace.

Q: Another pace takes over and you find that you have already been doing it. This is so good, for you have no choice in the matter. It’s like ‘I am not doing this’.

R: This means one is already committed to finding out. It is not that you make a commitment ... one can always break a commitment after a lot of soul-searching ... this one you can not break. There is no pulling back ... which is why most people do not want to start. Once one has started, one can not stop. It is a one-way trip. That is the thrilling part of it.

Q(2): I think it’s different for me. What I’ve experienced so far is that I knew the commitment had been made and yet I don’t feel I’ve reached that stage where the pace is doing itself ... if that’s it.

R: Right. Are you still ‘doing it’? Still setting the pace?

Q(2): Well I’m not doing it as much as I was, but I’m not at where I understand you to be talking of. That point where it is really rolling by itself.

R: Would you say that you have gone past the stage of being genuinely interested into becoming fascinated by what is going on for you?

Q(2): That’s starting to happen, but I’m not totally fascinated.

R: With application and diligence, born out of pure intent, it will happen. One can not help but become fascinated, for this is the predicament that humankind has been agonising over for aeons. You will not be able to continue to come here and remain unaffected. The reluctance to become fascinated is because of the ‘no turning back’ aspect. You need to be absolutely sure that this is the correct way ... of course. Please, continue to check it out. Do not worry about being doubtful. Question everything. Be utterly scrupulous in your enquiry, for this is your life we are talking about. You, and only you, have to live your life. It is you that must suffer the consequences – or reap the rewards – of any step you take. You have to find out for yourself whether I am utterly deluded or not. Remember, you are talking to a madman ... I am officially insane, don’t forget.

After fascination comes obsession.

Q: You can’t leave it alone any more ... or rather: it doesn’t leave you alone.

R: Yes, that is when that momentum is rolling. You are not setting the pace any more. An eagerness grips you ... I happen to think it a delightful eagerness, but of course I am biased! Eagerness, correctly directed, is magnificent. One feels alive, vital, dynamic. Things happen. One can no longer distinguish between me doing it and it happening to me. They happen simultaneously ... cause and effect are left behind in the Land of Lament. It is absolutely thrilling.

Q: It’s very adventurous. I really don’t know what is going to occur next.

Q(2): You see, somewhere before then you must have given up this belief that life’s bad. Because I know that’s still there in me.

R: That is basic to the human situation ... that life is a sick joke. How can it be when this universe is so enormous? Infinity is about as big as you can get! How can it be perennially ‘bad’? How can you believe that? Look at the stars at night ... the oceans ... the trees and birds ...

Q(1): I have this sensation in my body ... a rushing feeling.

R: Is it thrilling?

Q(1): Yes, definitely. It’s a rush.

R: I had a rush many a time over the years and I would sometimes think: ‘My god, what am I doing?’

Q: ‘I’m out of control’. [Laughter]

R: Then I would think: ‘They warned me about this!’ and ‘Don’t do this’. [More laughter] Yet it is not ‘out of control’. It is ‘out from control’ ... out from being ‘under control’. One is neither controlled nor uncontrolled. It is a third alternative.

Q: This is why it is essential to have pure intent operating ... that guides you. The motto is: As long as it is good for all of us humans. It means the end of suffering.

R: The end of malice and sorrow. Then there is purity, innocence. For the first time there is peace-on-earth ... not a truce, not a panacea. Peace. Universal peace. One is harmless and happy – this is unambiguous, be there no doubt about it – I mean actually harmless and happy. No-one suffers in this and, least of all, oneself does not either. No noble martyrdom here please! Nor is there an ‘Us and Them’ mentality. We humans are all in this business of living together; no-one is exempt. We are all here doing this.

How is your ‘rush’ going? Where did it lead to? [To Q(1).]

Q(1): It’s the feeling of letting go. I’m on a slide and I’m not hanging on. It’s a very alive feeling ... a feeling of: ‘Something’s happening’. It’s beyond the point of looking back. I’ve had it before ... a few days ago where I said that I’m becoming more comfortable about being with you. Out of that an ease came. The same is happening now.

Q: Ease. Ease is a very good characteristic that you are on the right track.

Q(1): The other thing I am thinking is I’m watching serendipity. The favorable circumstance brings the unexpected. At one stage recently you said to me: ‘You ignore the magic’. It’s just this ... it’s incredible ... it’s so right ... and then the magic happens. This is the serendipity.

Q: You experience it as magic ... it comes as an extra.

R: It gets beyond the cerebral – the intellectual understanding – and the emotional feeling. This is actually happening. A case of: ‘My goodness, I’m doing this’. Doing this business of being alive ... and doing it here. It is happening now. Serendipity has nothing to do with cause and effect. This moment is happening and I am doing it. Then one is in this propitious state of being able to say: ‘I am doing what is happening’. And this is wonderful.

This is where one has to be here, grounded at this moment. If one is not committed, not fully involved and is standing back trying to apply ‘I am doing what is happening’ as a method, a practice, a belief, an injunction, then one will be blown around like a leaf in the wind ... or drift aimlessly through life relying upon others to look after one. That scriptural injunction about ‘care not for the morrow’ is nonsense. Are trees going to grow loaves of sliced bread? One needs to fend for oneself; one has to operate and function in the world of people, things and events in a sensible way.

Q(2): It’s amazing that so many people around here think like that ... that all will be provided.

R: People actually do. I was talking with one man once about what it would be like when everything came correct for him – mystically and miraculously – and he maintained that everything would be supplied. I asked him what he meant ... he would still have to go to the shops, wouldn’t he? He said no. Seriously, he expected that trees would start growing sliced bread. Literally.

Q(2): Seriously?

R: Seriously. I asked him how he could say that and he said he had had an experience of ‘living in the present’ and he had had no plans, no income, no whatever and, for example, a cheque arrived in the mail. I asked where the check came from and he said it was his income tax return. ‘It just arrived’, he said, ‘and I had money to live on. So that’s how it will be’. I pointed out that he had had to work a job in order to pay tax in order to get a tax return ... that comes out of his past, not out of living ‘in the present’. ‘Once you have used that cheque up, where will the next come from?’ I asked. He said: ‘Oh, they’ll just come’. He was absolutely convinced that the cheques would just arrive in the mail and he would not have to do anything for them.

So I said to him: ‘Okay, that means that there are other people out there beavering away to produce these cheques for you. Where would their cheques be coming from?’ He was adamant that that was the way it would be! I decided to take him further into this to demonstrate the stupidity of his belief. I said ‘Okay, you are sitting in this armchair and that tree is growing sliced bread. You have to get up and walk out and pick it of the branch. Why do you not have it in your fantasy that the sliced bread appears on your table already buttered and with cheese on it?’ He went for that one so I said that you have to then pick it up and put it in your mouth to chew it. I enquired why, in his fantasy, he does not make the food appear in his mouth and all you have to do is chew away to your heart’s content. I said: ‘Take it one step further and do away with the whole business of eating. If you are going to have a real fantasy make an entirely new body that is not dependent upon eating. No mouth, no stomach, no bowels ... you will not have to go to the toilet!’

I took him right through his fantasy until he was sitting as a bodiless point of bliss on the outer edges of some Cosmic Nowhere ... which is what his fantasy actually is. No body, you see.

Q: It’s so preposterous ... it is against the body ... against life on earth. It’s such nonsense ... mostly, people don’t want to be here. There is a basic resentment against being a body and being here.

R: Which brings us back to the belief that life is inherently bad. In 1980, when I was looking at the stars one night, I realised that I could no longer believe that this gigantic happening called the universe could possibly be ‘set-up’ so that I would be perpetually miserable in it. Or any of us humans. It is simply too enormous for it all to be some sick joke, some divine punishment or some random accident ... what nonsense! I realised the vast perfection of everything happening all at once. From that moment on I could no longer go on believing it all to be bad. Not that I then believed it to be good ... it is no use whatsoever to be swapping one belief for another; going from a negative belief to a positive belief still leaves you living in the land of belief. Seeing the fact is what is important.

The fact is that this universe is already perfect. It is only ‘me’ who is seeing it wrongly. ‘I’, as an identity, a self, should not be here. ‘I’ live in mortal danger of being found out for the usurper that ‘I’ am ... so ‘I’ am ready and willing to believe in ‘Whatever’ to appease ‘my’ unease. ‘I’ avoid looking at the fact, for such a ‘seeing’ will lead to ‘my’ inevitable demise. ‘I’ will spin fantasies of an after-life to ensure my immortality ... anything to deny death.

I have the greatest admiration for ‘Richard the identity’: He was willing to self-immolate so that I could be here. He never knew me, but was utterly confident that the universe knew what it was doing. He was happy to disappear so that all this could eventuate. He was prepared to go all the way without reservation ... the ‘boots and all’ approach, he called it. What are you saving yourself for? Reach out. Extend yourself. All one gets by waiting is yet more waiting. Patience may be a virtue, but procrastination is an abomination.

Be wary of virtues ... they are designed to perpetuate the self.