Actual Freedom – Mailing List ‘A’ Correspondence

RICHARD: Enlightenment has been held to be the Summum Bonum of human existence for at least three thousand years ... if not more.

RESPONDENT: Having been on the cancer ward it is my observation that a lot of people manage to get to a condition that looks and sounds a lot like ‘Enlightenment’. And if they do in fact die it makes them and their going more pleasant that it might otherwise be. Those of us who get over it, get over it. I mean enlightenment. The living know they are less than perfect and that awareness has a considerable survival value. On the other hand if you are dying no reason not to put a pleasant spin on life and go sweetly.

RICHARD: But if the ‘living know they are less than perfect’ then why do they not do something about it? Perfection is possible, here on earth, in this lifetime, as this body only. However, the whole concept of Enlightenment has seduced people away from the possibility of achieving perfection here and now ... the perfection of Enlightenment is predicated upon there being a permanent self – an ‘I’ called the Self – that exists for all Eternity. Thus they look to an After-Life wherein one becomes Immortal. This is selfishness taken to the extreme. It is the perpetuation of self – in whatever form – that is the sole cause of suffering.

Could I paraphrase you comment above? ‘If, on the other hand you are living, there is no reason not to put a pleasant spin on being here and live sweetly’.

The dead are dead, and death is the end. Finish. It is us who are still here who must deal with suffering ... and it is possible for suffering to be eliminated now ... and not have to wait for physical death for reprieve.

RESPONDENT: A lot of the debate on this list seems to be about the question of seeing the truth and approaching the truth. I’m not quite sure why that is so. No. 12 and No. 4 have a logically correct way of being able to assert they see the ultimate truth. I’ve no problem with their logic – do you?

RICHARD: Logic is abstract, not actual. I have no interest in some logically constructed ‘ultimate truth’ – a mental exercise which has no basis in fact and actuality.

RESPONDENT: Do you see your Web-pages as an alternative ultimate truth. Just asking.

RICHARD: No. I see them as an alternative to the ‘ultimate truth’.

RESPONDENT: The problem with someone asserting they are perfect (enlightened) is that if they are then what have they left to do? I respect the view but for me at least enlightenment is best to be something to be approached in the sense of a mathematical approach to zero. You know, a limit. I’ll be almost there but by tomorrow I’ll be half again nearer. I think Camus was saying something like this is his story about the guy pushing the rock.

RICHARD: You must be referring to that adage about life being a journey ... and that the journey is it. I do not concur with this erudition. I am not actually going anywhere, I am already here. And here lies a magical perfection, where it always is. Although the journey itself is thrilling it is utterly blithesome to arrive. It is funny at times, for I often gain the impression when I speak to others, that I am spoiling their game-plan. It seems as if they wish to journey forever – they consider arriving to be boring. How can unconditional happiness, twenty-four-hours-a-day, possibly be boring? Is a blithesome life all that difficult to comprehend? Why persist in a sick game – and defend one’s right to do so? Why insist on suffering when blitheness is freely available here and now? Is a life of perennial gaiety something to be scorned?

The persistence of the belief that suffering is ‘good for you’ decries the accolade ‘mature adult’ attributed wrongly to the proponents of this bizarre creed. A belief system that condemns human beings to a life-time of grief – which, in some obscure way is good for one – whilst eschewing happiness – which in an equally obscure way is bad for one – is simply institutionalised insanity. Some religious groups even go so far as to issue the edict that if one is perpetually happy here on earth one must have sold one’s soul to their devil! The fascinating thing to realise is that neither their soul nor their devil has any existence outside of their fertile imagination. They have fallen prey to the beguiling belief, so prevalent among humans, that an ‘I’ exists inside this flesh and blood body. Any ‘I’ is only a psychological entity ... it is not actual, it has no substance whatsoever outside of feelings, thoughts and instincts. All their heavens and hells are but a nightmare trip that seems to suit the macabre and perverse character of humanity at large.

RESPONDENT: It is better to try to improve oneself than to assert that one is perfect. The first case suggests action or striving. Certainty in most cases I know the people who could claim to be the best (because they are the top of what they do) seem to spend more time improving and training than in asserting they are perfect.

RICHARD: The whole point of achieving perfection is that there is nothing left to improve. No more training or striving ... a lifetime of ease and enjoyment is yours for the asking.

RESPONDENT: I guess in a Nutshell ‘Richard’ the difference between us is that I am not yet ‘perfect’ to which I can only say with reference to Nietzsche that in the game of ‘we who hold ourselves higher cause we despise ourselves’ you seem by the above no contest. Which is not meant to be unkind. To be unkind would be: bad form. Hell, maybe you are perfect. I don’t know you. You say you are perfect. Okay: you are perfect. I know me and I’m not perfect. I’ve still got a couple exams to go. Then I’ll be perfect. So you see. I’m not accusing you of anything to which I do not seek. I just know that in my case I’m not there yet have a lot more to do before I Am!

RICHARD: Trying my best to disregard the obvious sarcasm in your response, I puzzled over whether to take your post seriously or not. What are you trying to say? Why does it bother you that perfection is possible here on earth? Do you not wish to live a life of ease and enjoyment? And it is of no use to quote Mr. Friedrich Nietzsche at me because he knew naught of what I talk about. I most certainly do not despise myself ... and I do not ‘hold myself higher’, either. Only Enlightened people do that, and I am not Enlightened, I am a fellow human being.

Apart from the obvious benefits of personal ease and enjoyment by eliminating sorrow in oneself, there is the social benefit of ridding oneself of malice. All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause.

This is surely worth thinking about before rushing to the keyboard, with the lowest form of wit eagerly in hand, to dash off a missive castigating someone with the necessary integrity to do something about the appalling suffering of one’s fellow human beings ... did you know that over 160,000,000 people have been killed in wars this century alone? Not to mention all those countless millions maimed, tortured, raped and otherwise having their life’s work destroyed ... yet all the while perfection is freely available here and now for anyone who dares to dedicate their life to ensuring a peace-on-earth for themselves, as this body only, in this life-time.

Just thought I would mention it.

RESPONDENT: Richard, in the sense that bad monie drives out good on this list you are Richard and I am StarBadger. I respect your point and I am sorry if it seemed to you unkind. Now if you can get that jack off your rear-axle and your wheels on the ground maybe you can become a MCSE or MCSD or CNE until which you’re just another Hyena to be given a fatal injection (ask Motoridge to explain or go to the New Yorker and read: I was eaten ...).

RICHARD: I am not too sure what a ‘bad monie’ is when it is at home ... maybe you meant ‘bad money’? Anyway, I gather you are implying that I am bad and that you are good.

By getting ‘that jack off your rear-axle and your wheels on the ground’ I presume you mean that I am making a lot of noise and not getting anywhere?

• I have no idea what a MCSE is. Or a MCSD, for that matter. Not to mention a CNE.
• By referring to me as being ‘another Hyena to be given a fatal injection’ I assume you want me dead.
• And I will not ‘(ask Motoridge to explain)’ ... if you want me to understand you, you explain yourself.
• I live in a small village in Australia, not the USA, therefore the New Yorker is not readily available for me to read ‘I was eaten ...’.

Altogether, your post contributes nothing to two-way discussion and a sharing of experience. It appears to me that you have allowed what started out as a promising thread to degenerate into a name-calling collection of insults. Just what is your problem?

All I can do is repeat my earlier questions ... which you did not answer. Or is the above collection of scintillating wit your answer?

What are you trying to say? Why does it bother you that perfection is possible here on earth? Do you not wish to live a life of ease and enjoyment? Apart from the obvious benefits of personal ease and enjoyment by eliminating sorrow in oneself, there is the social benefit of ridding oneself of malice. All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause. Did you know that over 160,000,000 people have been killed in wars this century alone? Not to mention all those countless millions maimed, tortured, raped and otherwise having their life’s work destroyed ... yet all the while perfection is freely available here and now for anyone who dares to dedicate their life to ensuring a peace-on-earth for themselves, as this body only, in this life-time.

I have no objection to a robust and vigorous debate ... even name-calling and insults if so desired. But surely you can at least contribute something constructive amongst the verbiage.

I look forward to an intelligent discussion.

RESPONDENT: If you can’t walk the talk ... you’re just talking.

RICHARD: But I can ‘walk the talk’... I am not ‘just talking’.

The questions I raised two posts ago are as follows: What are you trying to say? Why does it bother you that perfection is possible here on earth? Do you not wish to live a life of ease and enjoyment? Apart from the obvious benefits of personal ease and enjoyment by eliminating sorrow in oneself, there is the social benefit of ridding oneself of malice. All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause. Did you know that over 160,000,000 people have been killed in wars this century alone? Not to mention all those countless millions maimed, tortured, raped and otherwise having their life’s work destroyed ... yet all the while perfection is freely available here and now for anyone who dares to dedicate their life to ensuring a peace-on-earth for themselves, as this body only, in this life-time.

I look forward to an intelligent discussion.

RICHARD: What are you trying to say? All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause. I look forward to an intelligent discussion.

RESPONDENT: I think what you mean Richard is a ‘discussion’ on your terms. Since you have introduced the idea that all the horrors of the world can be reduced to this ‘root cause’ please define (in a screen) what this root cause is and how it may be reduced so the horrors cease. Thanking you in advance for your attention to the ‘root cause’.

RICHARD: I do not mean ‘a discussion on my terms’ at all ... it was you who started this exchange by buying into a thread on ‘Perfection’ between me and another list member with a post about being on a cancer ward and, watching people die peacefully, you likened their condition to ‘Enlightenment (Perfection)’. You went on to explain that, in your opinion, perfection is something never achieved here on earth, but ‘approached like the approach to the mathematical Zero’. That is, never getting there. I responded by stating that perfection here on earth was not only possible but highly desirable as it resulted in, not only a life of ‘ease and enjoyment’ for the achiever, but ensured an eventual peace-on-earth. Our discussion was, I considered, progressing famously.

Then you took off on a tirade about me being bad and you being good ... and that by getting a jack of my rear axle I could become unknown things like a ‘MCSE or MCSD or CNE’... and that I was to rush about looking up obscure references in search engines and the New Yorker ... and I was to ask Motoridge something or another ... and then a hyena came into the story which in some way related to you wanting to give me a fatal injection ... and goodness knows what else!

And all because I had written something germane to the discussion, viz.: [Richard]: What are you trying to say? Why does it bother you that perfection is possible here on earth? Do you not wish to live a life of ease and enjoyment? Apart from the obvious benefits of personal ease and enjoyment by eliminating sorrow in oneself, there is the social benefit of ridding oneself of malice. All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause. Did you know that over 160,000,000 people have been killed in wars this century alone? Not to mention all those countless millions maimed, tortured, raped and otherwise having their life’s work destroyed ... yet all the while perfection is freely available here and now for anyone who dares to dedicate their life to ensuring a peace-on-earth for themselves, as this body only, in this life-time.

And you say I want the discussion on ‘my terms’? No, I only want to continue what started out as an intelligent and meaningful exchange of views. Is that too much to ask for?

The root cause so far was your reluctance to examine the possibility that perfection was achievable here on earth, in this life-time, as this body – resulting in peace on earth ... instead of holding on to your mathematical model of never getting there, as in approaching Zero.

This is achieved through the elimination of the self ... and the malice and sorrow that is intrinsic to it.

RICHARD: The root cause ... is achieved through the elimination of the self ... and the malice and sorrow that is intrinsic to it.

RESPONDENT: Richard, you are the reason I changed to the handle StarBadger as I do not want to be confused with someone who gets hot and bothered repeating what the Buddha said as if his own original thoughts. Whether I quote Nietzsche I prefer giving credit. Alas you seem not to do this.

RICHARD: But, of course, I did not write what you say I did ... you had to resort to cut and paste to make it look like that. What I actually wrote (before you chopped it up) was: ‘The root cause so far was your reluctance to examine the possibility that perfection was achievable here on earth, in this life-time, as this body – resulting in peace on earth ... instead of holding on to your mathematical model of never getting there, as in approaching Zero. This is achieved through the elimination of the self ... and the malice and sorrow that is intrinsic to it’. And what did you make of it? Allow me to cut and paste too:

[Respondent]: ‘I understand how one can take the statement above in the best way and then Buddha reads wise. What the Buddha had to say makes sense (not you, you are simply a thief of ideas)’.

Just for context, here is where it comes from:

[Respondent]: ‘I understand how one can take the statement (‘The root cause ... is achieved through the elimination of the self ... and the malice and sorrow that is intrinsic to it’) in the best way and then Buddha reads wise ... but tell me Does a fatal injection not eliminate self? Try it then tell me more. Here I do not wish to be cruel nor do I suggest you take a fatal injection. What the Buddha had to say (not you, you are simply a thief of ideas you don’t appear to quite gronk) makes sense but it has been said by Bobbie Burns or Adam Smith or any number of people. It’s just a cliché without p-value. If the Hyena is given a fatal injection what happens to the Hyena? And be careful. If you say ‘nothing’ and go off about the ‘eternal’ hyenas then by logic we can forgive the Holocaust as not only did it not eliminates Jews it made them greater. More eternal. See Primo Levi. Who are we to challenge him? He was there. I was not at Dachau (a true p-statement)’.

RESPONDENT: It is by the way a nice saying. With all the bah, bah dross removed, its as good as any. No p-value of course ... but if it makes you feel better: you’re perfect. You say you are. Perfect. You’re perfect.

RICHARD: You do seem to have a problem with the possibility of perfection here on earth do you not? Because it is more than just ‘a nice saying’ – even with ‘all the bah, bah dross’ (whatever that is). Personally, I would like to agree with you ... no p-value at all. But then again, I like what you write ... I think that your statements have a lot of bs-value.

Not content with cutting and pasting my paragraph to suit your own nefarious purpose, you then falsely attributed something to me, vis:

[Respondent]: ‘True or False. An example of a statement (quite typical here on this List) that is neither is. ‘If I believe something is true it is true for me’. (see Richard on Perfection). Such a statement is absurd’.

I typed ‘If I believe something is true it is true for me’ into my computer’s search function and sent it back through all my posts to this list and it did not find it at all. Perhaps you would care to send me your copy of the post wherein I wrote the above statement? Or else, of course, you can retract your mendacious accusation.

I also skimmed through some of your posts to other list members, and all have the same quality of content as the above. Here I must ask: Have you lost your marbles completely ... or are you on some type of illegal medication? And to think that all I have to do to achieve these fascinating responses is to continue to re-post my earlier paragraph: ‘What are you trying to say? Why does it bother you that perfection is possible here on earth? Do you not wish to live a life of ease and enjoyment? Apart from the obvious benefits of personal ease and enjoyment by eliminating sorrow in oneself, there is the social benefit of ridding oneself of malice. All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause. Did you know that over 160,000,000 people have been killed in wars this century alone? Not to mention all those countless millions maimed, tortured, raped and otherwise having their life’s work destroyed ... yet all the while perfection is freely available here and now for anyone who dares to dedicate their life to ensuring a peace-on-earth for themselves, as this body only, in this life-time’.

I can hardly wait to see how you react this time.

RESPONDENT: In my defence I cut but I did not paste or mean to change the core meaning. Sorry if I did (change the meaning) my sense was and is that the words cut were extra or explanation or expanding on the core statement (above) about how ‘malice and sorrow’ are intrinsic to it (sic: self).

RICHARD: Okay, so you ‘cut but did not paste’ – ‘cut and paste’ is merely an expression I used – and you did not ‘mean’ to change the core meaning but you did. My point was that ‘the root cause so far was your reluctance to examine the possibility that perfection was achievable here on earth, in this life-time, as this body – resulting in peace on earth ... instead of holding on to your mathematical model of never getting there, as in approaching Zero’. The correctness of my point is born out by what you go on to write in this post, vis:

[Respondent]: ‘surely you are aware that the assertion that any real thing (like you and I or a 767) is perfect is well: not real (help: anyone, explain to Richard about Plato and his perfect circles)’.

Thus, to you, it is obvious that perfection here on earth, as this body, in this lifetime, is not possible. This has been the thrust of our correspondence from the beginning. I maintain that perfection is possible – and I do not, under any circumstances, mean Mr. Plato’s ideal perfection, for he was an ideas man and I am not at all concerned with ideas or ideals ... I am only interested in facts and actuality.

I live in the actual perfection that is located here and now at this place in space and this moment in time. This perfection is apparent only when one is perfect oneself – which is when one has eliminated malice and sorrow and is thus happy and harmless. Malice and sorrow are intrinsic to the self one was born with (what the Christians call being ‘born in sin’ or the Hindus and Buddhists describe as being ‘immersed in Maya’) and rise mainly out of the instinctual fear and aggression that all animals, including humans, have been endowed with by blind nature. To live without the instinctual self with its fear and aggression is to be perfect ... then the perfection of the universe – its infinitude – becomes apparent. Mr. Plato knew naught of all this ... and neither did Mr. Gotama the Sakyan.

It has been demonstrated that the basic passions originate in the brain-stem (popularly called the ‘reptilian brain’) of all sentient beings ... even those without a cerebral cortex. Did Mr. Gotama the Sakyan (if there ever was such a flesh and blood person anyway) know about the ‘reptilian brain’ being the seat of the instinctual passions such as fear and aggression and nurture and desire? Is this why Buddhism has been ineffective in bringing about Peace On Earth despite two and a half thousand years in which to do so? Because there is as much suffering now as back then.

This is why it is of no avail to compare Mr. Gotama the Sakyan’s revered wisdom to the actual freedom what I am living, because he was oblivious to these matters that I write of ... it is a well known fact, for example, that out of compassion he would not take the ‘final step’ while a single sentient being was still suffering. Which is why, for Buddhists, their ultimate state of perfection – ‘Parinirvana’ – lies on the other side of physical death. Thus his identity indubitably remained intact ... for compassion rises out of sorrow. To become actually free – not just Enlightened – the opposites are eliminated, not merely transcended. The self that he referred to was but the ego-self. If you had been following this thread you would have already known that I have written – probably ad nauseam – about eliminating not only the ego-self but the soul-self as well. In other words, any identity whatsoever. Nothing metaphysical will survive the death of this body, nor was there anything metaphysical before this body’s birth. Buddhism maintains a belief in re-incarnation and an after-life – which requires a metaphysical entity that is independent of this body even though they cleverly deny that any self exists. Perhaps a quote from the Encyclopaedia which came with this computer will help explain:

‘The ultimate goal of the Buddhist path is release from the round of phenomenal existence with its inherent suffering. To achieve this goal is to attain Nirvana, an enlightened state in which the fires of greed, hatred, and ignorance have been quenched. Not to be confused with total annihilation, Nirvana is a state of consciousness beyond definition. After attaining Nirvana, the enlightened individual may continue to live, burning off any remaining karma until a state of final Nirvana (Parinirvana) is attained at the moment of death’.
(https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialSciences/ppecorino/PHIL_of_RELIGION_TEXT/CHAPTER_2_RELIGIONS/Buddhism.htm)

Please note the ‘not to be confused with total annihilation’ bit ... actual freedom is only about total annihilation ... extinction ... extirpation. As for what survives the body at death in Buddhism, another quote from that same source might help:

‘Trikaya is the doctrine of Buddha’s threefold nature, or triple body. These aspects are the body of essence, the body of communal bliss, and the body of transformation. The body of essence represents the ultimate nature of the Buddha. Beyond form, it is the unchanging absolute and is spoken of as consciousness or the void. This essential Buddha nature manifests itself, taking on heavenly form as the body of communal bliss. In this form the Buddha sits in godlike splendour, preaching in the heavens. Lastly, the Buddha nature appears on earth in human form to convert humankind. Such an appearance is known as a body of transformation’.

It will be seen from the above that a metaphysical entity remains in existence ... do you see now why chopping up my paragraph to make it sound like I was quoting Mr. Gotama the Sakyan without acknowledging him was rather foolish? His ‘wisdom’ is not worth the paper it was printed on ... and it was not printed until so many years after his alleged life/death that there is serious dispute about the authenticity of anything he purportedly said and did anyway. There is also thoughtful scholarly debate as to whether these archetypal religious/ spiritual teachers historically existed. Most of these ‘sacred texts’ were cobbled together by pundits and pedants over the centuries, added to commentary by commentary until they are but a collection of half-baked inanities masquerading as ‘Truth’. Humankind has been held in mythical thralldom for far too long – it is high time humans all came of age and started thinking and discovering for themselves. And, after all is said and done, if that is not what genius is – a person with the ability to think and discover for oneself – then what is? The postings on this list are mainly psittacisms.

RESPONDENT: Yet you do assert we can be perfect: right? But then I guess you’d add the Coda that you mean ‘have a perfect soul or spirit’.

RICHARD: Oh, so you have not been following this thread ... because I have written of nothing else but the elimination of ‘soul or spirit’ ... not trying to perfect it.

RESPONDENT: One thing I want to be clear on is that admitting one is not perfect does not preclude trying to be better, nicer, whatever. Nietzsche calls this the pride of the self-despiser. It (self-despising) is the greatest pride and as you assert: a pride you lack. It (self-despising) is the greatest pride and as you assert: a pride you lack. It (self-despising) is the greatest pride and as you assert: a pride you lack. It (self-despising) is the greatest pride and as you assert: a pride you lack. It (self-despising) is the greatest pride and as you assert: a pride you lack. It (self-despising) is the greatest pride and as you assert: a pride you lack.

RICHARD: Mr. Friedrich Nietzsche, eh? So this is another example of his ‘wisdom’ ... and you thought it so wise that you felt it worthwhile repeating umpteen times ... methinks you have been out in the sun too long. It is of no use to quote Mr. Friedrich Nietzsche at me because he knew absolutely nothing of what I talk about. I most certainly do not despise myself ... and I do not have any pride – nor humility. Only Enlightened people do that, and I am not Enlightened, I am a fellow human being. What are you trying to say? Why does it bother you that perfection is possible here on earth? Do you not wish to live a life of ease and enjoyment?

Apart from the obvious benefits of personal ease and enjoyment by eliminating sorrow in oneself, there is the social benefit of ridding oneself of malice. All the wars, murders, tortures, rapes, domestic violence and child abuse stem from this root cause ... did you know that over 160,000,000 people have been killed in wars this century alone? Not to mention all those countless millions maimed, tortured, raped and otherwise having their life’s work destroyed ... yet all the while perfection is freely available here and now for anyone who dares to dedicate their life to ensuring a peace-on-earth for themselves, as this body only, in this life-time.

Just thought I would mention it.

RESPONDENT: I am quoting you to ask you to explain or enlarge on matters I do not or have not yet understood. You say at the onset that you are ‘only interested in facts and actuality’. I feel it is understanding this quote that will lead me to understanding you. What do you mean? Are you at odds with No. 12 and No. 4. To the extent that you are posting actively on this thread that is to some degree the creature of No. 12 and No. 4 ... would you say that you (your position) are like them or are you an alternative. What do you mean when you say you are interested in facts but not ideas. Or have I again (sorry) misread you.

RICHARD: I am interested in ‘facts but not ideas’ because only thus is there something that can not be erroneous or incorrect. A fact is actual, not a dream, an illusion or a delusion. A fact is patent, obvious, apparent, evident, tangible, palpable, substantial, tactile, verifiable and indisputable. The marvellous thing about a fact is that one can not argue with it. One can argue about a belief, an opinion, a theory, an ideal and so on ... but a fact: never. One can deny a fact – pretend that it is not there – but once seen, a fact brings freedom from choice and decision. Most people think and feel that choice implies freedom – having the freedom to choose – but this is not the case. Freedom lies in seeing the obvious, and in seeing the obvious there is no choice, no deliberation, no agonising over the ‘Right’ and ‘Wrong’ judgment. In the freedom of seeing the fact there is only action, and that action is the movement into perfection. A fact – and the seeing of actuality and living in it – brings freedom from imperfection.

Ideas never do ... they lead to delusion ... and to war or suicide in extreme cases.

RESPONDENT: Are you the same as No. 12 and No. 4 or do you see yourself as different. I sense the answer is different. So how different?

RICHARD: You sense correctly: I am different. They, and some others on the list, are of the school of thought that stipulates that logic is the way to an ‘Ultimate Truth’ ... which has been the way of most philosophers for aeons. As far as I am concerned, judicious and expedient logic is useful inasmuch as it is a practical, matter-of-fact, down-to-earth logic ... as in reasoning out the implications of something according to the facts. Logic must be actual to be worthwhile, not abstract. Nor must it stray into the realm of belief and ideas. Any ‘Ultimate Truth’ is a belief, an idea ... and thus not actual. It is not liveable.

Nowhere have I read any of the followers of the abstract logic school of thought on the list – or anywhere in the world or in history – ever use words like: ‘My life has changed radically, fundamentally, entirely, completely and absolutely since I discovered the ‘Ultimate Truth’.’ These people do not say: ‘Since I discovered the ‘Ultimate Truth’ I have become happy and harmless; I am rid of malice and sorrow; I now have an individual peace on earth; my life is marvellous twenty four hours a day; each moment again is packed full of joy and delight; I am so glad to be here as my life is wonderful to the nth degree; I can not want for more’ ... and so on and so on.

Methinks it speaks for itself.

RESPONDENT: It has been my experience that when I E-Mail to addresses that E-Mail to the List that I get a response where the other – gets out from behind the dogma or position that they are posing on the List and emerges as a person.

RICHARD: But I do not have any dogma – which means a doctrine, a creed, an ideology, a faith, a principle, a canon, a belief – for I deal only in facts and actuality. Thus I do not have a position to come out behind of ... I am up front, out in the open, obvious and apparent all the time. I have nothing to hide for there is no-one to do any hiding. I can not ‘emerge as a person’, if by ‘person’ you mean ‘I am only human’, because my ‘person’ annihilated itself some years ago. There is no ‘I’ inside this body in any way, shape or form to do any ‘emerging’.

RESPONDENT: You say: ‘focus on the one and most important culprit that you can lay your hands upon – yourself’. Again I agree with you that self is the best place to start and don’t we wish that any number of people would do that. Where I and I think most of us have a problem with that point ... is that while it is a starting pt. It is the starting point of a journey. We still have to learn how to earn a living, get along in the society in which we find ourselves (or move to another) and so on.

RICHARD: The self is not just ‘the best place to start’, it is also the only place to start. ‘I’ the ego and soul, am the root cause of all the misery of humankind and ‘my’ demise (psychological self-immolation) is the only thing that ‘I’ can do that is best for this body in particular and for all bodies at large.

When one sees – actually sees with both eyes – that ‘I’ am the root cause, one indeed starts on a journey. It is a journey of not only seeking, but finding; not only exploring, but discovering; not only questing, but uncovering; not only examining, but unearthing; not only travelling but arriving. You would have heard of that adage about life being a journey ... and that the journey is it? I have written to you before that I do not concur with this erudition. I am not actually going anywhere, I am already here. And here lies a magical perfection, where it always is. Although the journey itself is thrilling it is utterly blithesome to arrive. It is funny at times, for I often gain the impression when I speak to others, that I am spoiling their game-plan. It seems as if they wish to journey forever – they consider arriving to be boring. How can unconditional happiness, twenty-four-hours-a-day, possibly be boring? Is a blithesome life all that difficult to comprehend? Why persist in a sick game – and defend one’s right to do so? Why insist on suffering when blitheness is freely available here and now? Is a life of perennial gaiety something to be scorned? Finding and arriving is the whole point of life.

Then ‘earning a living’ and ‘getting along in society’ is a breeze.

RESPONDENT: I don’t want to say too much more while saying enough. You seem to too quickly take offence (my impressions following your exchanges). But allow me one question to which I will volunteer an answer regards myself. How do you make a living? Without knowing I’d guess you are either rich or on the Dole. Which by the way I do not prejudge. I’m more rich than on the Dole and will volunteer the two conditions are more alike than different from the poor blokes who have to 9 to 5 or worse.

RICHARD: Contrary to the impression you have gained, I do not take offence ever ... I am having so much fun bashing away at people’s belief systems that my words may, in their verve, come across as being offensive. I make no apologies for my style as experience has shown me that people will defend their right to be sorrowful and malicious to their last breath, if they are allowed to get away with it. Tolerance has not worked ... there are still as many wars, murders, rapes, incidents of domestic violence and child abuse as centuries ago ... not to mention all the loneliness, sadness, grief, depression, despair and suicide that is endemic in humanity. I do not beat about the bush ... your peace and harmony and happiness is at stake ... which then flows on to humankind as a whole.

As to how I make a living. You see, this is where I look askance at you regarding your sincerity at wanting to know about the possibility of perfection here on earth, for this question has been answered at least twice in my posts to the list in the preceding few weeks. Do you actually read what is written? Why ask the same question over and over again? I personally keep a copy of all the posts that are the one’s wherein people respond to mine or that I find interesting – I have all of your posts to me on file in my word processor and your other posts to other people in my E-Mail archives. Before I write back, I refresh my memory about the particular person by referring to what they have already taken the trouble to write.

And, anticipating your further enquiry, although I worked at many jobs throughout my life, my main career was as a practicing artist – although I am also a qualified art teacher. I also spent six years in the military, as a volunteer, and served my time in a war-torn foreign country in 1966. So I know of war at first hand.

Peace on earth is possible, in this life-time, as this body.

RICHARD: I happen to be a married man with four adult children and seven grandchildren. I am retired and living on a hard-won pension in a brick veneered, three bedroom suburban house, in a mini-suburbia ... with a colour TV and VCR in the lounge room. And, anticipating your further enquiry, although I worked at many jobs throughout my life, my main career was as a practicing artist – although I am also a qualified art teacher. I also spent six years in the military, as a volunteer, and served my time in a war-torn foreign country in 1966. So I know of war at first hand. Peace on earth is possible, in this life-time, as this body.

RESPONDENT: Thank you, Richard, finally I understood you, you’re OKAY, maybe Perfect! Richard, you don’t know, well maybe you do, how pleased I found your answer this time. I understood what you were saying and it made sense. Thank you. What you said made a lot of sense this time. Anyway – I am pleased to finally understand your position. Without picking a fight with you I can see why No. 5 gets upset with you: you aren’t expressing yourself in an academic way but between us – who cares. Now I understand your position and in its essence you are 100% right. We have to begin with ourselves and when we do that everything else does indeed sort of fall into place. I’ve still got I guess another 10 yrs. or so to go before I can back away – I’ve got a last daughter 13 and she would not be pleased to see me retire. Again please forgive me for any unkind words in past posts. I have seen and you made clear what you mean – and I have understood you by ‘not doing philosophy’ but, Richard, that is what we do on this List albeit in a ‘wise guy’ sort of way.

RICHARD: People can – and do – involve themselves in ‘doing philosophy’ until the moon turns blue, but it will not reveal the meaning of life to them. When one rids oneself of any identity whatsoever – the ‘I’ as the ‘self’ and the ‘Self’ (the ego-self and the soul-self) – one is then living the meaning of life twenty four hours a day. Then all is out in the open, obvious and self-evident. I am only concerned with the practical, not the abstract, use of thought. I would call this actual sagacity, and of far more worth than any amount of mental masturbation ... would you not agree with this?

RESPONDENT: Your insight makes sense for you and without resorting to cheap shots, you can do, as you are retired and living among a family who loves you.

RICHARD: Sorry to disappoint you, but being retired has nothing to do with perfecting oneself. I was 34 years of age when I deliberately triggered off my major break-through into another dimension to life by dissolving the ego-self. I was running my own business; working 10 to 12 hour days, six or seven days a week; raising a family of four school-age children; paying off a mortgage and a car and juggling bill payments; leading a busy social life ... all in all, a normal human existence.

I was 45 years of age when I dissolved the soul-self and managing a property in the country for an absentee landlord.

As for ‘living among a family who loves you’ – my nearest family member is living two thousand miles away and I have not seen any of them for years. Love has nothing to do with perfection here on earth ... in fact it detracts from it and leads people into all kinds of delusions.

RESPONDENT: It makes sense for you – but does it make sense.

RICHARD: It makes a lot of sense ... and maybe that is what the problem is for you as in regards understanding what is being said.

RESPONDENT: Richard, Perfection, if you’ll stop being so abrasive, you can be a wise guy but give up on the idea you’ve gone through it all. It’s a lot more biological than that Richard. I’m starting to mellow too.

RICHARD: May I then ‘non-abrasively’ suggest that you stop mellowing and start living keenly ... your individual peace and harmony and happiness is dependent upon your own vital input ... not to mention the social benefits of ridding yourself of malice and sorrow. A mellowed identity is still an identity, nevertheless, wreaking its havoc among the near and dear and the far and wide.

RESPONDENT: Nature is very kind, you might even say it is Perfection. You’ve just mellowed out, it happens to lots of us as we age. Don’t mistake it for perfection. I mean when last did you rape or kill anyone?

RICHARD: Nature is not perfection ... it is ‘red in tooth and claw’, as the well-known adage goes. Also, it would appear that it is you who is mistaking ‘mellowing-out’ for perfection here on earth, not me.

As for raping or killing – never. I can not muster the requisite anger at all ... I have not even thought ill of anyone for seventeen years. Living in the perfection of being here as a body only at this moment in time and this place in space is ambrosial, to say the least.

RESPONDENT: Well, Richard, you’ve just got older.

RICHARD: I am not all that old ... I am just on 50 years of age. I started living life whilst still young ... waiting for old age to mature one is like waiting for Godot – it never happens. One earns maturity via application and diligence born out of a pure intent to actualise the optimum ... whereas by sitting around procrastinating one merely gets older and a little bit wiser, but not sagacious. When all is said and done, it is your own situation which shines through in this post ... it is full of justifications, protestations ... and resignation. May I suggest that you come to your senses?

You will be glad that you did.