Actual Freedom – Selected Correspondence by Topic

RESPONDENT: K speaks of the otherness which implies a duality but it is not the duality of the centre or guest within guest.

RICHARD: I can be in broad agreement with this way of putting it.

RESPONDENT: Each state of being has its own art, religion, philosophy, etc. These matters have been discussed in depth by Taoist and Buddhist writers, by Ouspensky and Fourth Way writers, and by Osho for instance.

RICHARD: I am familiar with most of the writings you mention bar Mr. Petyr Ouspensky ... I have only had a brief look at his work as it struck me as being a mixture of philosophy, psychology, theology, science – and even politics – all wrapped up in some form of intellectual gnosis.

I have never been particularly taken by Mr. George Gurdjieff’s approach anyway.

RESPONDENT: Same here. But Ouspensky’s ‘The Fourth Way’ is definitely a worth while read in my opinion.

RICHARD: Maybe ... I recall speaking with a number of people, probably 17-18 years ago, over a number of evenings who were readers of Mr. Petyr Ouspensky (which is when I briefly looked at his work) and all the conversations were dry, intellectual, conceptual.

It read as being a structured work ... not a lived writing.

RESPONDENT: Here is my understanding at this point ... I previously knew that the fourth state of consciousness (enlightenment, samadhi, nirvana or whatever) is added to the third state (awakening, satori), only with the difference that the last one needed to be surpassed as this was considered an ‘evolution’.

RICHARD: As I am not familiar with the ‘fourth way’ nomenclature of Mr. Georges Gurdjieff and Mr. Petyr Ouspensky I can only say that what is generally known in Hinduism as ‘Turiya’, or the ‘Fourth State’, is the same state of being as the altered state of consciousness (ASC) popularly known as spiritual enlightenment (in Vedic terms ‘jagrat’ or ‘vaishvanara’ [wakefulness] is the first state; ‘svapna’ or ‘taijasa’ [dreaming] is the second state; and ‘sushupti’ [deep sleep] is the third state). Furthermore, there are about as many gradations and categories of enlightenment as there are schools of thought in spiritual philosophy ... so as to keep it simple it is convenient to say there are those who are self-realised (illuminated or awakened) and those who are fully enlightened.

There can be temporary experiences of the enlightened state ... these are generally referred to, for example, as a satori experience, or kenso, in Japan (wu in Chinese) or entering into samadhi (India).

RESPONDENT: Your experience is that enlightenment is a degeneration of the third state of consciousness (PCE), am I correct?

RICHARD: No, and a pure consciousness experience (PCE) is not ‘the third state of consciousness’ anyway ... here is how you detailed the four states of the ‘fourth way’ system of spiritual philosophy of Mr. Georges Gurdjieff and Mr. Petyr Ouspensky:

• [Respondent]: ‘My reference system consists mainly in ‘fourth way’ ideas, ideas brought to the west by Gurdjieff and later on Ouspensky. I’ve chosen this system of thought as it is the most practical I’ve ever encountered. (...) There are four states possible for man:
state no. 1 is ordinary sleep.
state no. 2 is waking sleep, the state in which mankind lives.
state no. 3 is what is called awakening, man no. 4 [a man that has balanced all the three functions (1– motor-instinctive function; 2 – emotional function; 3 – intellectual) in him] has glimpses of it, yet it becomes almost permanent for a man no. 5 [a man that has awakened and thus knows himself objectively; possess a molecular body, that is a soul].
state no. 4 is available for man no. 6 [a man that is enlightened and objective about the outside world, his Being body made of light stretching within the Earth atmosphere, he has acquired Spirit, he is God, has real I, Self, whatever] and beyond [a man having a body that is free within the limits of the Solar system and thus obtaining the highest possible for a man], it is the state I’ve described [the experience of the state is like that of an atomic bomb detonated over your head, an atomic bomb made of love, bliss, freedom, will and extraordinary ecstasy (like your most powerful orgasm x 10000000). Everyone around you is literally dead, whether a spiritual man, a scientist or a savage from Africa. Being in all things you know them directly, their inner substance, you don’t need any descriptive procedure based on observation. (...) Another thing is that in the fourth state there is nothing more to know. You have Absolute knowledge of Every thing]. Man no. 5 can have glimpses of it in the same way in which man no. 4 can have short glimpses about the 3rd state’. (‘Verification’; 30 July 2001).

As you describe ‘the third state of consciousness’ as being an awakened state wherein one ‘possesses a molecular body, that is a soul’ it simply does not equate with a PCE as a PCE only happens when the psychological/psychic identity within (both ‘I’ as ego and ‘me’ as soul) goes into abeyance: a PCE is a temporary experience of an actual freedom from the human condition ... it is a flesh and blood body only (sans both ego-self and soul-self/spirit-self) being apperceptively aware.

Put succinctly: a PCE is not an ASC.

RESPONDENT: I suspect that this enlightenment state of consciousness is layered on top of the PCE ...

RICHARD: Perhaps it would help to explain that the PCE can devolve into an ASC, such as a satori/ samadhi experience, when the psychic identity (‘me’ as soul) comes sweeping back and claims the experience for its own ... thus grandiosely usurping the infinitude of the universe.

RESPONDENT: ... as I cannot find a more plausible explanation for the fact that the world had had the same magical qualities, was a perfect place to live in and that some senses were very accurate (I was having a wider field of vision somehow different from the usual ‘window sight’, I was hearing all the noises of the moment, as for the other senses I don’t remember).

RICHARD: This is the way I have explained my usage of the word ‘magical’:

• [Richard]: ‘I was using the word ‘magical’ in its stage-magician sense of prestidigitation. Viz.: [quote] ‘all ‘I’ had to do for it [the meaning of life] to be apparent was to disappear. It is all rather magical’. [endquote]. Also, this actual world is rather magical in the way it is all just here right now of its own accord (without any cause)’. (Re: Magic? Meaning; July 20, 2002).

Whereas you say that the physical world is not just here right now of its own accord, without any cause, but that everything has begun out of the Self (aka Creator):

• [Respondent]: ‘I question if actual freedom from Human Condition is attainable without surpassing the last psychic Archetype, the Self, our Creator, out of which everything has begun? (self vs. Self; 07 July 2002).

The enlightened state of consciousness is in no way ‘layered on top of the PCE’ ... just as an actual freedom from the human condition is beyond enlightenment so too is a PCE beyond any ASC.

RESPONDENT: The ‘sparkling silver’ sensation (it was like thin silver powder filled the air) combined with something resembling Music (the effect of various vibrations I suppose) may very well belong to the realm of ASC.

RICHARD: No matter what realm it belongs to it has no existence whatsoever here in this actual world.

RESPONDENT: Yet, immediately after this state ended I had dinner and I remember how extraordinary delicious the taste of food was: it’s still the best meal I have ever had in my life.

RICHARD: It is quite common to have heightened sensory perception in an ASC (provided it be an extroversive ASC as contrasted to an introversive ASC): the nature mystics have written extensively about such experience: http://www.jnani.org/natmyst/natmyst_set.html

However, the introversive ASC is generally held to be both superior and more significant as it is exemplified by (a) the disappearance of all the physical and mental objects of ordinary consciousness and, in their place, the emergence of a unitary and undifferentiated consciousness and thus (b) the event is non-temporal (timeless), non-spatial (spaceless), and non-material (formless).

Mr. Robert Forman, on page 131 of the ‘Journal of Consciousness Studies 5 1998b’, (in a paper called ‘What Does Mysticism Have To Teach Us About Consciousness?’), described the introversive ASC as a pure consciousness *event* so as to emphasise the absence of any experienced object – it is pure subjectivity in other words – which is also why such terminology as ‘Consciousness Without An Object’ is used to describe the totally senseless and thoughtless trance state known as ‘dhyana’ in Sanskrit (Hinduism) and as ‘jhana’ in Pali (Buddhism).

In the West such a state can only be described as catalepsy ... apart from Mr. Venkataraman Aiyer (aka Ramana), in his early years, possibly the best-known example could be Mr. Gadadhar Chattopadhyay (aka Ramakrishna): onlookers can see the body is totally inward-looking, totally self-absorbed, totally immobile, and totally functionless (the body cannot and does not talk, walk, eat, drink, wake, sleep ... or type e-mails to mailing lists).

A never-ending ‘dhyana’ or ‘jhana’ would result in the body wasting away until its inevitable physical death ... as a means of obtaining peace-on-earth it is completely useless.

RESPONDENT: There are hints pointing towards your actual state in the 4th way system as well (one of its major sources are esoteric Sufi teachings), but it is said that it can only be achieved when ‘enjoying’ a fully operational Self already in place, not before.

RICHARD: If you could provide the hints about achieving an actual freedom from the human condition, which you say are in the 4th way system and/or esoteric Sufi teachings, I would be only too happy to read them.

RESPONDENT: So this being an already difficult thing to achieve for most people, it probably seemed pointless to develop the idea even further or to convey/design any specific method when there was no case.

RICHARD: Let me see if I comprehend what you are saying here: Mr. Georges Gurdjieff and/or Mr. Petyr Ouspensky, and some un-named esoteric Sufi teachers, achieved an actual freedom from the human condition, whilst ‘enjoying’ a fully operational Self already in place, but it probably seemed to them pointless to convey to other human beings how they achieved it (let alone developing/designing anything else) as being a fully operational Self was already a difficult thing to achieve for most people.

Am I understanding you correctly?

RESPONDENT: Your case seems to prove that ...

RICHARD: If I may interject? It would help considerably to read the hints, about achieving an actual freedom from the human condition which you state are in the 4th way system and/or esoteric Sufi teachings, that say such a condition can only be achieved when ‘enjoying’ a fully operational Self already in place, not before, before coming to the conclusion that my case seems to prove that it probably seemed pointless to Mr. Georges Gurdjieff and/or Mr. Petyr Ouspensky, and some un-named esoteric Sufi teachers, to tell other human beings about how they achieved it – let alone developing/ designing anything else – as being a fully operational Self was already a difficult thing to achieve for most people.

And referenced quotes would help even more.

RESPONDENT: ... and any evidence for a more direct route is still to come.

RICHARD: If by this you mean that it is yet to be demonstrated, that one can proceed direct to an actual freedom from the human condition without passing ‘Go’ again and winding up in gaol, by somebody actually doing it then that is (to use a colloquialism) a no-brainer as nobody has done that yet – as far as I have been able to ascertain – but the pure consciousness experience (PCE) patently provides the necessary evidence that such an action is possible.

RESPONDENT: There are hints pointing towards your actual state in the 4th way system as well (one of its major sources are esoteric Sufi teachings), but it is said that it can only be achieved when ‘enjoying’ a fully operational Self already in place, not before.

RICHARD: If you could provide the hints about achieving an actual freedom from the human condition, which you say are in the 4th way system and/or esoteric Sufi teachings, I would be only too happy to read them.

RESPONDENT: Yes, there is a phrase in a book written by Rodney Collin, either ‘The Theory of Conscious Harmony’ or ‘The Theory of Celestial Influence’ ...

RICHARD: Mr. Rodney Collin’s book ‘The Theory Of Eternal Life’ is available on-line in its totality at the following URL: http://www.geocities.com/rodney_collin/elife1.htm

In chapter one he says that ‘this chapter represents an extreme condensation of the ideas contained in Chapters 10, 11, 14 and 21 of an earlier book The Theory of Celestial Influence’ (which you mention above) and nowhere in that chapter, or in any other chapter, does he speak in any way of anything even remotely resembling an actual freedom from the human condition ... indeed the title itself (‘Eternal Life’) is a dead giveaway without even having to read it.

It is all about surviving physical death.

RESPONDENT: ... and if I remember correctly there are also remarks in ‘Beelzebub’s tales to his grandson’ by G. I. Gurdjieff.

RICHARD: I read two of Mr. Georges Gurdjieff’s books 17-18 years ago – ‘Meetings with Remarkable Men’ and ‘Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson’ – and, just as with ‘The Theory Of Eternal Life’, nowhere was there anything remotely resembling an actual freedom from the human condition in them.

Moreover, I do recall that at the time I did not consider there was much enlightenment in them, either.

RESPONDENT: The general idea in Rodney Collin’s comment is that one must first strive to achieve a soul (self-realized) when realizing the shortcomings of the physical world, then to achieve a Spirit (Enlightened) when realizing the soul shortcomings and pointing that even the Self may vanish as well (when realizing its Divine not-so-good properties).

RICHARD: You are aware, I presume, that Mr. Rodney Collin converted to Catholicism just two years before ending his life abruptly, at age 48, when he descended from the top of an open-sided bell tower of a cathedral to the square below by the quickest and shortest way possible?

There is nothing in Catholicism that even remotely resembles an actual freedom from the human condition.

RESPONDENT: Rodney Collin gives no further description of what happens after the Self dissolution although he speaks extensively about three worlds (cellular-physical body, molecular-soul and electronic-Divine).

RICHARD: As this is in keeping with what he writes in ‘The Theory Of Eternal Life’ – and chapter twelve in particular – there is no reason to read his other books.

RESPONDENT: As for specific Sufi comments, I cannot give you any reference, but I do know that much of the 4th way system is derived from Sufi teachings.

RICHARD: So you do not know whether or not any esoteric Sufi teachings point towards achieving an actual freedom from the human condition, whilst ‘enjoying’ a fully operational Self already in place and not before, eh?

RESPONDENT: I also don’t possess any of these books so I cannot provide to you an exact quote.

RICHARD: So be it then ... and as you say (further below) that when these people speak about the properties of the universe they are being [quote] ‘experienced through the Absolute eyes’ [endquote] it would appear that they are not, in fact, speaking of achieving an actual freedom from the human condition after all.

I cannot say that this surprises me.

*

RESPONDENT: So this being an already difficult thing to achieve for most people, it probably seemed pointless to develop the idea even further or to convey/design any specific method when there was no case.

RICHARD: Let me see if I comprehend what you are saying here: Mr. Georges Gurdjieff and/or Mr. Petyr Ouspensky, and some un-named esoteric Sufi teachers, achieved an actual from the human condition, whilst ‘enjoying’ a fully operational Self already in place, but it probably seemed to them pointless to convey to other human beings how they achieved it (let alone developing/ designing anything else) as being a fully operational Self was already a difficult thing to achieve for most people. Am I understanding you correctly?

RESPONDENT: I’m only saying that there are hints pointing further than Enlightenment in the 4th way system ...

RICHARD: If I may interject? What you specifically said was that there are hints pointing towards an actual freedom from the human condition in the writings of the 4th-way system. Viz.:

• [Respondent]: ‘There are hints pointing towards your actual state in the 4th way system ...’.

If you now wish to now make ‘actual state’ mean the after-death states (such as Parinirvana, Mahasamadhi and so on) all enlightened beings are convinced they have a one-way ticket to then it would be best to say so ... an ‘I’m only saying’ 180 degree turn-away from your initial statement adds nothing to clarity in communication.

RESPONDENT: [I’m only saying that there are hints pointing further than Enlightenment in the 4th way system] as well as there are in other eastern spiritual teachings you quoted (Parinirvana, Mahasamadhi).

RICHARD: That is a different thing entirely ... Parinirvana (Buddhism) and Mahasamadhi (Hinduism), being an after-death state, and being not attainable whilst still alive (Parinirvana translates as ‘Final Nirvana’ and Mahasamadhi translates as ‘Great Liberation’), are not the ‘actual state’ you initially made out you were speaking of.

Apart from that there are various self-proclaimed masters who declared having gone beyond enlightenment (Mr. Mohan ‘Rajneesh’ Jain and Mr. H. W. L. Poonja for instance) but as both their way of being and their teachings never changed their claim lacks substance ... let alone hinting of an actual freedom from the human condition.

RESPONDENT: Tis only my supposition based on: 1) a written hint pointing to a Self-less state.

RICHARD: Yet Theravada Buddhists also propose a ‘Self-less state’ (the ‘anatta’ or ‘no-self’ doctrine) and that does not stop them revering Mr. Gotama the Sakyan’s Parinirvana and working towards such an ‘Awakening’ as he achieved so as to be also eligible for his after-death ‘Deathless’ state (‘Amata’) ... all of which makes their ‘no-self’ doctrine a matter of either (a) semantics ... or (b) one-upmanship (as in Buddhism is superior to Hinduism) ... or (c) misunderstanding what Mr. Gotama the Sakyan had to say (he said the Self is not to be found in the world as everything in the universe is subject to disease, inconstancy, stress and change).

And there is no prize for guessing (a) where there is no disease, inconstancy, stress and change ... or (b) what is to be found there.

RESPONDENT: 2) the assumption that some enlightened people probably have had glimpses of this state (where do these hints come from anyway?).

RICHARD: As ‘these hints’ you are referring to have nothing to do with an actual freedom from the human condition – and everything to do with securing a post-mortem reward – they come from the (seeming) promise of the after-death state ... where there is no dratted body to stuff up the exalted state of being with such a mundane requirement as acting in the world.

RESPONDENT: They might have thought that the ‘no-Self world’ would be only of concern to those possessing a Self, is it not a logical thing to presume?

RICHARD: No, and again I only need to point to Theravada Buddhism in order to say so.

RESPONDENT: Of what interest would this discovery be to someone immersed in the real world ...

RICHARD: As Theravada Buddhism, for instance, makes quite a big thing of it there has obviously been an interest for 2,000 years or so.

RESPONDENT: ... as even you make no secret that these words are primarily addressed to the more or less former spiritual students.

RICHARD: This just does not make sense: first you say that the ‘no-Self’ world would only be of concern to ‘those possessing a Self’ ... and then you say my words are primarily addressed to spiritual ‘students’ so as to back-up your point.

RESPONDENT: How many on this list have not been on a spiritual path prior to joining this discussion?

RICHARD: As only about 15-20% of those subscribed, at any given period, write to The Actual Freedom Trust mailing list I am unable to supply an accurate answer ... most of those that do write are, or have been, spiritual to some degree another.

All that this might demonstrate is that materialists (14% of the general population), who consider all things mystical as belonging to the lunatic fringe, have no interest in going beyond lunacy.

I guess they would rather stay sane.

RICHARD: ... are there no hints about the properties of this universe also in those writings [the 4th way system]?

RESPONDENT: Yes, there are but they are viewed and conveyed from an ‘objective’ point of view, (that is experienced through the Absolute eyes and translated in ordinary language, my opinion) although it is stated that they are scientific facts yet to be discovered.

RICHARD: For the sake of clarity in communication: are you suggesting that these people experiencing the universe through ‘Absolute eyes’ have discerned the infinitude of this universe ... have discerned that it exists infinitely, eternally, and perpetually (which means it is not a creation)?

RESPONDENT: Ouspensky wrote a book ‘In search of ...’ in which he stated that the age of the Universe is somewhere like 10^120 years (ha-ha, I don’t remember exactly, anyway it was an enormous number), I guess this definite number means that the Universe is not infinite.

RICHARD: Okay ... that would explain why you initially said that you have not heard enlightened people saying a word about the infinitude of this universe. Viz.:

• [Respondent]: ‘... the confusion arrises that not the Universe is infinite but that I am, or that I’m the one immortal, not the Universe, etc. I haven’t heard enlightened people say a word about the infinity of this Universe, but instead the same old spiritual refrain: Me, Me and Me.(September 15 2003).