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Vineeto’s Correspondence on Mailing List C Correspondent No. 10
6.12.1998 RESPONDENT: Hi dears, I’m pretty much disinterested in the Peter and Vineeto show ... so If I figure out how, I’ll unsubscribe from this list for a while. See ya all later. VINEETO: And 2 days later: RESPONDENT: Hello everyone, I just wondering if there is anyone on this list who is attracted to Peter and Vineeto? What is it you admire about their writing?
VINEETO: So you have come ‘back’ to find out more about what Peter and I are talking about. I have to admit I thought you were a woman, since I know two women with the same name as yours. The internet is a funny place to meet and talk, isn’t it. But now to your question: * VINEETO to No 12: Despite all the in-built contradictions Osho was clear on one point:
RESPONDENT: I see you are well practiced in painting something with ugly colours. I suspect No Where will you ever find that Osho clearly made this point. But IT is clear that this is your perception, and therefore you build your works on something you paint ugly, something that may or may not be reality in any world (real or actual) except in your perception. VINEETO: Do you mean to say that Osho never told us to realise that we are God (the Divine), and never said that he has already realised it? Is this not the very essence of what he was saying? No 12 has made a particular point that ‘Vineeto missed Osho’ and I responded to his statement. I said:
Well, I have described at length in the above mentioned letter as to why I decided that I’d rather live in the actual world of people, things and events than get lost in the imagination of the psychic world with its passionate imaginations of Compassion and Truth. In that sense I have serendipitously ‘missed Osho’ and now have turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction to everything spiritual and non-actual. Life has not only gained immense meaning, but I am finally able to be happy and harmless, live at ease in the world and at peace, on my own and with other human beings.’ Seeing it from a Sannyasin’s point of view, you call my response ‘painting with ugly colours’. But with your very response you show that you are biased, and that you have an emotional response to what I said (‘ugly’). The difference between ‘real’ and ‘actual’ is significant. ‘Actual’ is that which is palpable, tangible, tactile, corporeal, material and sensately experienced. In comparison, ‘real’ is that which, while appearing actual, is merely the affective interpretation of the actual. As an example: usually people say, ‘I feel that what you are saying is...’, ‘I feel that your are being ...’, I feel melancholic because of the weather...’ – an affective response to and interpretation of the actual. But how would someone who is fond of his affections – because they is the very substance the ‘self’ is made of – be able to experience and understand the non-affective, non-cerebral, but sensate and sensible description of the actual? I can give you a description of a pure consciousness experience, as I have done before, but are you able to read it with clear eyes? Whenever I compare the actual world to the spiritual world I do this to point to the ‘rose-coloured glasses’ that you, the reader, are wearing. When I was a sannyasin, I had been wearing rose-coloured glasses, it was inevitable. It took great effort, courage and a year of continuous investigation into all my beliefs to be now able to experience the world-as-it-is, without any glasses ie. interpretations whatsoever. RESPONDENT: Is it possible for you to speak of your ‘NEW WAY’ with out interpreting, recolouring, rewriting anything of the past? Having nothing but a blank canvas to start with, No retold old stories to compare with? If, as you say, you have eliminated the old ways of being ... then is it possible for you to not carry them around for show an’ tell... Can you relate from a clear space? VINEETO: I do ‘relate from a clear space’, but do you read from a ‘clear space’? Are you not conditioned as a Rajneeshee when you read what I write? For brevity I’ll give you Peter’s description of a peak-experience, there is a
longer one from me on our website in
When I describe the actual sensual experience of the world around me and when I talk about eliminating beliefs and emotions in order to be capable of such pure experiencing of the actual, I am talking about the third alternative – tackling the root cause of the problem, not just transcending it. This means, eliminating the Human Condition in you, not only dis-identifying from the duality of the good and bad of the ‘normal’ world. It also means eliminating the spiritual duality of ‘being the watcher’ to a supposedly ‘illusory world’. The Third Alternative removes everything that is preventing one from experiencing the purity and perfection of the actual world, which is already happening. Only because we are wearing grey-coloured or rose-coloured glasses because of our conditioning, feelings, beliefs and instincts we are unable to see it. RESPONDENT: I find the colours you repaint the past with to be only yours. For me they are not valid as I perceive the past with my own mind’s filter. As long as I find that you holding up a false past to compare your new third way to, I find your whole story to be contaminated with a false past. If you were able to write from a clear space without telling me everything I have experienced in the past is a shit brown colour... then perhaps... But as it is, your notion that you have eliminated all dualities is just another falsehood ... because you keep making the same old comparisons in every paragraph you write. Your third way seems nothing more than another illusion created by a tense mind. VINEETO: When I took Sannyas I had been raised and conditioned as a catholic middle-class German. In order to understand Osho I had to at least question those religious and social conditionings. But I was ready to do so, because life wasn’t all that wonderful, burdened as I was with those conditionings. I attempted to leave the ‘normal’ world of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ behind and entered the ‘spiritual’ world of ‘good dharma’ and ‘bad karma’. At that time, I could have blamed Osho for ‘telling me everything I have experienced in the past is a shit brown colour’. But my search was for freedom and I was willing to investigate what other people had told me to be the truth. With Actual Freedom a second de-conditioning took place, a spiritual de-conditioning. And again, I was ready for it, because after all those years of sincere effort my search did not show the results I had been aiming for. This second de-conditioning was much more radical and went far deeper than the first, it is going to eliminate all of me , ego and soul, emotions and beliefs, instincts and ‘spiritual achievements’. It leaves me as this physical body with its senses, free to delight in this pure, perfect and infinite universe as a sensate and reflective flesh-and-blood human being. Nothing more, nothing less. Actual Freedom provides a simple and effective method to achieving and is available for everybody who wishes to go for the best – presupposing that you are discontent with your life as it is now. RESPONDENT: Bla, bla, VINEETO: I enjoy our discussion. I am curious what you make of it.
RESPONDENT: Sorry I haven’t read the whole post... way too much at one time. VINEETO: I’ll do it in three bits this time, so it won’t excess your attention-span. RESPONDENT: No. I’d say ... He said ... something like ...‘Since there is no God, the old saying that cleanliness is next to godliness is wrong ... so the only thing left is cleanliness...’ I’ve spent a lot more time cleaning than thinking of Osho or myself to be Gods. How ‘bout you? VINEETO: I have a cleaner coming in every other week. RESPONDENT: I did not say he never said it .. .as I don’t know if he did or did not. If he did ... It is not a point he made clearly. Which is what I said... I suspect No Where will you ever find that Osho clearly made this point. Also I suspect he more often said we were the same rather than we were different. I clearly recall him saying we were Friends...on a walk/ journey... VINEETO: So your life is based on what you are suspecting that Osho has said?
VINEETO: No. 2 of our short conversation: RESPONDENT: I asked if you can relate the New Way of being from a clear space and you give me... VINEETO: I can, but can you read from a ‘clear space’? RESPONDENT: And a borrowed rap from someone else ? (I wasn’t interested in using the time reading it, sorry...) VINEETO: Maybe you are interested to talk about the weather, then? It is a magnificent sunny day today here. We have a blue summer-sky, with a few weather clouds building up and a wonderful breeze taking the top off the heat from the bright day, moist, warm air... RESPONDENT: My only reason for asking if you could relate from a clear space was because of the statement of you having eliminated all past conditioning, and yet only editing and rewriting history is what is exhibited in your writings. VINEETO: Well, I am relating from a clear space. But you can only recognize this if you can read from a clear space. Otherwise you will object, call it ‘shit brown colour’ or mould it into what you already know ...
VINEETO: No 3 of our short conversation: RESPONDENT: Never did I claim to read from a clear space. I take responsibility for having a mind and its filters... VINEETO: How do you take responsibility ‘for having a mind and its filters’? Does ‘taking responsibility’ include considering the possibility of eliminating those ‘filters’ such that you could one day read and experience from a clear space? RESPONDENT: I am only what I pretend to be ... and the mind loves to play its tricks. Wouldn’t you say?? VINEETO: I am only this flesh-and-blood body. I have eliminated most of my conditioning, emotions, beliefs and instincts. What remains of my ‘mind’ is my brain’s innate intelligence, also known as common sense. Of course, the ‘self’, consisting of beliefs, feelings, emotions and instinctual passions ‘loves to play its tricks’ and will do anything to stay in existence. But those tricks can be examined and uncovered and eliminated and make room for the naiveté that is born out of the pure experience of the actual world.
VINEETO: So your life is based on what you ‘suspect’ Osho has said? RESPONDENT: You’re coming off like you are lookin’ to set traps, not at all malice free... didn’t hear what you wanted to hear... so make it into baiting and battling. VINEETO: No, these are your words, I am not looking to set any traps. I am looking for some common ground for a clear discussion, that’s all. I was asking a question on how you extract the guidelines for your life. RESPONDENT: I suspect he more often said we were the same rather than we were different. I clearly recall him saying we were Friends ... on a walk/ journey... VINEETO: If you ‘suspected’ that he and you were the same, why were you sitting at his feet? Did you act upon Osho’s saying that you and he were ‘Friends’ – did you treat him as a friend and had a friendly chat with him? Or did you treat him as a Master and receive his teachings? I clearly recall him saying that he regarded us as ‘friends’, but we were to regard him as a master. RESPONDENT: Unlike you and Peter I am often able to distinguish and accept the difference between theory – hunches – wishes ... and provable facts. VINEETO: Can you tell me some of those ‘provable facts’ that you base your life on? I prefer to talk about facts for the simple reason that one can sort them out, while ‘theory-hunches-wishes’ and beliefs evaporate in the bright light of investigation. With facts there is confidence and certainty, while with beliefs there is always this little doubt, always this little doubt... RESPONDENT: If that were so... Then I would be a totally free and independent person. All thought would originate from within me... How cool! VINEETO: It is possible to be totally free, but then one will have to eliminate one’s emotions, beliefs and instinctual passions first, one will have to become extinct as the one who one ‘thinks’ and ‘feels’ one is. To do this you cannot trust or rely on someone else’s wisdom, be they be called ‘Love’ or ‘Truth’ – that is dependency, not freedom. RESPONDENT: But then again ... I am a free and independent person ... so it must be true ... I guess it is MY MIND that does interpret and translate all that It sees and hears ... and then only as clearly as it can... but really, my life is much more than what I think Osho said or didn’t say ... so picking apart what he said to make some point in my conversation seems silly and a pointless waste of energy. Kinda’ the same feeling I get from the conversations with you and Peter. My experience of these conversations is mostly that of embarrassment. VINEETO: The East and its teaching has lead us astray with the theory that ‘you are not your mind’. They clearly state that if you only dis-identify from your ‘mind’ then you become your ‘true’ nature – the ‘Self’, which is one with everything, God, Buddha Nature, etc. But this ‘Self’, this so-called ‘Buddha Nature’ is still an identity and an enormous one as such. Only when you eliminate both, ‘self’ and ‘Self’, can you be free to experience this actual magical world with the physical senses, unfiltered by emotions, beliefs, instincts or glorious delusion. As for ‘picking apart’, it was you who joined in on my conversation with No. 12 who wanted to have specific information on Osho’s spiritual conditioning and beliefs. Who is picking? RESPONDENT: I think I’ll go do something else. Bye. VINEETO: How is the weather on your side of the planet today? How does the sky look from the window you are looking out of? A cold winter-day, or a misty soft and cloudy sky? Here we have...
RESPONDENT: Vineeto, Like I said... The quality of what I experience in conversation with you is that of embarrassment. I do not experience coherence, comprehension, or respect. I will participate no further... enjoy your weather.
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