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Richard’s Correspondence On The Actual Freedom Mailing List with Correspondent No. 44
RESPONDENT: Richard, can you tell me please if apperception, does not take place, then what is taking place? RICHARD: Oblivion ... such as, for example, being asleep, having fainted, under anaesthesia RESPONDENT: In other words, if you are not apperceptively aware, then in what state are you? RICHARD: None.
RESPONDENT: The base of actualism is apperception. Read everybody please very carefully this JK speech. (snip) Richard says can the mind be aware of itself. He took definitely this concept from JK and change the word, by calling it apperception to look more sophisticated and so he can always hide behind this word. JK was very familiar with this concept thought aware of itself, no you aware of thought but thought aware of its self. Please read carefully. Is nothing new for JK what Richard is saying. RICHARD: I have never said that apperception is ‘thought aware of itself, no you aware of thought but thought aware of its self’ ... that is what you make of it. Here is but one instance of how I describe what I mean by apperception: [quote]: ‘ ... apperception occurs when identity, by whatever name, is temporarily absent – as in a pure consciousness experience (PCE) – or permanently extinguished – as in an actual freedom from the human condition – and is best explained as consciousness being aware of being conscious (rather than the normal ‘I’ being aware of ‘me’ being conscious). Vis.: ‘apperception: the mind’s perception of itself’ (Oxford Dictionary). Put simply: apperception is direct perception (perception unmediated by any identity whatsoever) which is the same thing as saying direct sensation – be it ocular sensation, cutaneous sensation, gustatory sensation, olfactory sensation, aural sensation or even proprioceptive sensation – because in the PCE, and in an actual freedom, only the sensate world exists in all its splendour and brilliance. *Thought may or may not be operating* as required by the circumstances. [emphasis added]. RESPONDENT: Are you contradicting now your own words? [Richard]: ‘apperception: the mind’s perception of itself’. [endquote]. You have defined mind as brain in operation, that means thought. RICHARD: You have to be joking, right? The mind, the human brain in action in the human skull, is more than just thought. For example:
RESPONDENT: So the mind’s perception of itself = the thought’s perception of itself. Are you playing with words now? RICHARD: No, it would appear that you are. RESPONDENT: Be straight. RICHARD: Where have I ever not been straight?
RESPONDENT No. 50: I had a work assignment today that in the past has always been upsetting, but today ... I wasn’t! I was too busy being happy and harmless! RICHARD: Ahh ... those words are music to my ears. RESPONDENT: So you have feelings Richard? Because the above of yours show an emotional state. RICHARD: I am cognisant of the fact that English is not your first language, thus idiomatic expressions can be misconstrued, yet I am also cognisant of the fact that your wife was born and raised in the country where I reside and that therefore you must have at least some passing familiarity with such expressions as the one I used above. Nevertheless, for the sake of clarity in communication, I will refer you to the following:
And maybe this will be of assistance in comprehending any future such expressions on my part as well:
Of course I am pleased when someone reports being happy and harmless all day – especially in a situation which previously had *always* been upsetting – as that is the whole point of The Actual Freedom Trust web site, and The Actual Freedom Trust mailing list, being made available in the first place. Similarly, and as you have publicly said you take medication (SSRI’s) for anxiety (Agoraphobia), I would also be delighted to hear that you no longer need to. One does not have to have affective feelings in order to be chuffed upon hearing of another’s successes –
the affections are not the be-all and end-all of life – as there is, as I have already said to you in another context on July 10
2003, life after feelings And a perfect life at that.
RESPONDENT: It [‘music to one’s ears: something very pleasant to hear’] does not make any difference, because in an prior email you said that when you see a sunset is only seeing the sunset without any emotions, and when they asked you what is passing through your heart when you see your children, you answered, blood. So when you say something very pleasant to hear, you are in contradiction with the above, because you never said that a sunset is something very pleasant to see. RICHARD: Perhaps this will be of assistance:
And this:
And this:
In regards your reference to the fellow human beings who were my children back when I was a parent: indeed, on the occasions whenever I see them (which is very rarely) there are no affective feelings felt whatsoever – anymore than when I see any other of my fellow human beings – for there are, literally, no feelings whatsoever to be activated. And whilst on the topic of kin (for I nowhere do I deny I am their biological progenitor): kinship, as in ‘family ties’, or ‘blood is thicker than water’, and so on, sets up a powerful ‘us and them’ relationship with any other ‘us and them’ family, clan, tribe, race, and nation – to the point that untold millions of gallons of blood have been spilt over the aeons because of it – and the very nature of that powerful relationship, the very root of it all, is nothing other than the affective feelings, the emotions and passions, you are so insistent I must have. RESPONDENT: So you have emotions and feelings. RICHARD: So, if I understand what you are and have been saying correctly, just because I am pleased when someone reports being happy and harmless all day – especially in a situation which previously had *always* been upsetting – this to you is the evidence that (a) Richard has feelings ... and (b) actualism is a crock ... and (c) Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti has said it all before ... and (d) your agenda on this mailing list, to expose Richard for the charlatan he can only be, dismiss actualism for the copy-cat philosophy it must be, and promote a set of teachings about an after-death immortality, is well-justified. Am I understanding you correctly?
RESPONDENT (to Respondent No. 18): Good boy of the list, when I provide so many proofs about JK, being against reincarnation, did you asked Richard to fix his site, because is lie what he writes about JK and reincarnation? RICHARD: If I may draw your attention to the following exchange? Vis.:
You may have missed my response the first time around (on July 19 2003), you may have missed my response the second time around (on October 01 2003), but there is no way you can miss this third response of mine. Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti did *not* speak out against reincarnation ... he spoke against the concept of, the belief in, and the ideal of, reincarnation (just as he spoke against the concept of, the belief in, and the ideal of, the god or truth he found, recognised, and realised and the concept of, the belief in, and the ideal of, the after-death immortality such finding, recognising, and realising bestowed upon him). You are but tilting at a windmill.
RESPONDENT (to Respondent No. 18): Good boy of the list, when I provide so many proofs about JK, being against reincarnation, did you asked Richard to fix his site, because is lie what he writes about JK and reincarnation? RICHARD: ... you may have missed my response the first time around (on July 19 2003), you may have missed my response the second time around (on October 01 2003), but there is no way you can miss this third response of mine. Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti did *not* speak out against reincarnation ... he spoke against the concept of, the belief in, and the ideal of, reincarnation (just as he spoke against the concept of, the belief in, and the ideal of, the god or truth he found, recognised, and realised and the concept of, the belief in, and the ideal of, the after-death immortality such finding, recognising, and realising bestowed upon him). You are but tilting at a windmill. RESPONDENT: You have not understood nothing of JK teachings. RICHARD: Perhaps if I were to arrange the topic sequentially? Vis.:
If you can satisfactorily respond to all four points (No’s. 1, 2, 3, and 4) with clear, unambiguous, unequivocal, and straightforward answers (with referenced quotes and/or URL’s if necessary) I will publicly acknowledge that you are correct in saying that I have ‘understood nothing of JK teachings’ and that, furthermore, I have been grossly in error. If you cannot (or will not) then the website stays exactly as it is.
RESPONDENT (to Respondent No. 27): May be the parts Richard is reporting are before 1927. RICHARD: Why do you say ‘may be’ when I provided the dates for you at your express request only a few months ago? Vis.:
RESPONDENT (to Respondent No. 27): I asked him to give the whole speech, but he never did. RICHARD: I provided those dates because you said [quote] ‘I have his books and not the volumes can you please give me the date of the speech, because I should like to read it all of it’ [endquote] further above ... that you now say ‘may be’ the quotes are before 1927 indicates that, not only did you not take any notice of the dates I provided for you at your request, but that you never did read the volumes for yourself either, and are now using my not giving you the ‘whole speech’ as some kind of way out of addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said. ‘Tis no wonder he went on and on so much about how to listen, eh?
RICHARD: I provided those dates because you said [quote] ‘I have his books and not the volumes can you please give me the date of the speech, because I should like to read it all of it’ [endquote] further above ... that you now say ‘may be’ the quotes are before 1927 indicates that, not only did you not take any notice of the dates I provided for you at your request, but that you never did read the volumes for yourself either, and are now using my not giving you the ‘whole speech’ as some kind of way out of addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said. ‘Tis no wonder he went on and on so much about how to listen, eh? RESPONDENT: Richard, we all know the life story of JK. He past through many stages. I have all his speeches from 1933 till the last talk. His early writings are of no value. RICHARD: This is what I wrote immediately below the response I provided for you a few months ago when you expressly asked me for the dates so that you could read the whole speech for yourself:
As you ignored it back then you will probably ignore it now ... howsoever, do you notice that you shifted your cut-off date, as to what you consider is of value or not, from 1927 to 1933 when it turned out that your previous excuse for not addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said fell flat on its face? If so, you may – just may – be inclined to examine exactly what is going on in your mind ... to watch to see if it twists and turns and ducks and weaves in order to avoid what is being presented. Because there are still the quotes from after 1933 to address yourself to yet.
RESPONDENT: Richard, we all know the life story of JK. He past through many stages. I have all his speeches from 1933 till the last talk. His early writings are of no value. RICHARD: This is what I wrote immediately below the response I provided for you a few months ago when you expressly asked me for the dates so that you could read the whole speech for yourself: [Richard]: ‘For those who dismiss his earlier words I provide the following quote: [Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti]: ‘You asked a question: Has there been a fundamental change in K from the 1930’s, 1940’s? I say, no. There has been considerable change in expression’. [endquote]. As you ignored it back then you will probably ignore it now ... howsoever, do you notice that you shifted your cut-off date, as to what you consider is of value or not, from 1927 to 1933 when it turned out that your previous excuse for not addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said fell flat on its face? If so, you may – just may – be inclined to examine exactly what is going on in your mind ... to watch to see if it twists and turns and ducks and weaves in order to avoid what is being presented. Because there are still the quotes from after 1933 to address yourself to yet. RESPONDENT: I found another clearer declaration of JK: (snip quote speaking against the*idea* of rebirth). What else must JK tell to convince you that he does not support reincarnation? RICHARD: Did you watch your mind as suggested (to see if it twists and turns and ducks and weaves in order to avoid addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said)?
RICHARD: .... if you can satisfactorily respond to all four points (No’s. 1, 2, 3, and 4) with clear, unambiguous, unequivocal, and straightforward answers (with referenced quotes and/or URL’s if necessary) I will publicly acknowledge that you are correct in saying that I have ‘understood nothing of JK teachings’ and that, furthermore, I have been grossly in error. If you cannot (or will not) then the website stays exactly as it is. RESPONDENT: Richard, I did not wait from you that are so exact with definitions through dictionaries to write me: [Richard]: ‘I have read through all of the five quotes you provided (all of the 8,219 words) wherein Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti questions not only the belief in reincarnation but the belief in resurrection as well ... and ‘belief’ is the operative word for, despite your ‘to finish once for ever with reincarnation and Krishnamurti’ claim he never denied after-death states – both in the stream and out of it (aka being on the wheel or off it) – because, just as he questioned any belief in, or theorising/speculating about, a god or a truth and denounced all such idealising as being a hindrance to realisation (including the god he had discovered, recognised, and realised), he questioned any belief in, or theorising/speculating about, an after-life and dismissed all such idealising as being irrelevant to true religiousness (including the after-life he was convinced he held a one-way ticket to). In other words: his ‘Teaching’ was that if it were not a living reality for the person concerned all things esoteric had no existence for them’. [endquote]. We are speaking for reincarnation not of after death states. You are off. RICHARD: Here is a quote from the text *you* provided to this mailing list on May 27 2003 (in an e-mail entitled ‘Re: One question from Greece2’):
If that is not an after-death state I would like to know what is ... and here is another instance of similar ilk (after the assassination of Ms. Indira Ghandi):
As for me saying ‘both in the stream and out of it (aka being on the wheel or off it)’ in the passage of mine, which you referred to as ‘so exact with definitions through dictionaries’ you re-quoted further above, I was of course, in the context of the e-mail exchange we had a few months ago which it came from, referring to the following (also from that exchange):
The phrase he used often in his later years (‘stepping out of the stream’) is but another way of conveying what Indian spirituality has been on about for millennia (stepping off, or stopping, the ‘wheel of birth and death’ he refers to above):
As for the method of stepping off, or stopping, the wheel of otherwise endless rounds of existence, proposed in the Svetasvatara Upanishad (a Vedic Scripture) as ‘when through the grace of Brahma it realizes its identity with him’ and achieves immortality, Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti clearly stated he had discovered, recognised, and realised god or truth. Vis.:
This is what discovering, recognising, and realising god (or truth) means in unambiguous language:
And this is what it means to be god (or truth):
And, again from the ‘Conversation Following The Death Of John Field’ text which *you* provided to this mailing list, he makes it clear that reincarnation is the stream:
How you can say that I have ‘understood nothing of JK teachings’ has got me beat. * RESPONDENT: Has the Christian belief anything to do with reincarnation? You was off. RICHARD: Ha ... as it was a quote you posted to me on Saturday 12 July 2003, wherein Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti questions not only the belief in reincarnation but the belief in resurrection, which I was referring to (in the passage of mine you re-quoted further above), then if anybody is off it is you. Vis.:
May I ask whether you actually read the quotes you send to me? RESPONDENT: Be exact. RICHARD: If I may point out? I am being exact: I read through all of the five quotes you provided (all of the 8,219 words) and nowhere did I see Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti speak out against reincarnation itself ... all he spoke against was any belief in, or theorising/speculating about, the concept or ideal of reincarnation. RESPONDENT: When we speak about tomatoes we can’t answer about potatoes. RICHARD: Indeed not and, in keeping with your analogy, I am speaking about tomatoes (the reality, for Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti, of reincarnation, a god/truth, an after-death immortality, and a peace which is not on earth) and you are speaking about potatoes (the belief, concept, or ideal of reincarnation, a god/truth, an after-death immortality, and a peace which is not on earth, that Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti spoke against) ... which potato-speaking is what you go on to do more of in the quotes of his you provide this time around (some of which you have sent previously anyway). So as to initiate some focus here again is what I am asking:
When, or rather if, you can satisfactorily respond to that point, with a clear, unambiguous, unequivocal, and straightforward answer, then you might be able to see your way clear to direct your attention to the other three points I raised in response to your allegation that I have ‘understood nothing of JK teachings’. Vis.:
Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti’s teachings are essentially no different from eastern spirituality in general – which is fundamentally all about avoiding rebirth and attaining a (specious) post-mortem reward – and are not about peace on earth as a flesh and blood body. Vis.:
Put succinctly: peace-on-earth is nowhere to be found in spiritualism – nor in materialism for that matter – which is one of the reasons why I say actualism is the third alternative to both. The main reason why is, of course, in regards to the meaning of life.
RESPONDENT: We are speaking for reincarnation not of after death states. You are off. RICHARD: Here is a quote from the text *you* provided to this mailing list on May 27 2003 (in an e-mail entitled ‘Re: One question from Greece2’): [Mr. Sidney Field]: ‘Has John survived his bodily death in a subtler form? Yes or no? My gut feeling is that he is here beside me, right now’. [Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti]: ‘Of course he is, right here beside you. He’s very close to you, and will continue being close for some time’. [endquote]. If that is not an after-death state I would like to know what is ... RESPONDENT: You are altering everything, so I am sending the whole conversation so everyone can understand the way you act. RICHARD: Good – I am very pleased to have everybody understand the way I act – but you will need to explain in what way am I ‘altering everything’ because the text in question makes it quite clear that Mr. Sidney Field’s recently dead brother Mr. John Field is most certainly, according to Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti, continuing on in an after-death state (specifically ‘the stream’ which exists prior to, during, and after life) because he *is* the stream, after death, just as he *was* the stream whilst alive, because he did not step *out* of the stream – realise god/ become enlightened – whilst he was alive. Which is what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti means when he says ‘you are the world’ (that is, you are the stream) and that the answer is not to be found ‘in the world’ (that is, in the stream) but ‘away from the world’ (that is, out of the stream) ... and what is the only thing which is away from the world (that is, not of the stream)? None other than a non-material sacredness – that which is holy – he variously called god or truth or that and so on ... which point he emphasises in the text in question by referring to the Tibetan ‘Book Of The Dead’ where, if at physical death one lets go of ‘all of your antagonisms, all your worldliness, all your ambition’ one is going to ‘meet a light in which you will be absorbed’ (if one does let go) and if not, ‘you will come back, which is, come back to the stream, you will be the stream again’ (aka reincarnate). Here is the text where he clearly says that Mr. Sidney Field’s recently dead brother Mr. John Field is in the stream:
As Mr. Sidney Field’s brother Mr. John Field is dead (he died two weeks prior to the conversation) he can only be referring to an after-death state ... hence, despite your avowal at the top of this page, I am not off where I said that Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti ‘never denied after death states – both *in the stream* and out of it (aka being on the wheel or off it)’. [emphasis added]. RESPONDENT: The same is applied also for JK I am god. RICHARD: In what way am I ‘altering everything’ when I provide a quote where Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti unambiguously says ‘I am God’ when that very action – realising god – is how one steps out of the stream (that is, out of the world)? Incidentally, the first word in the ‘I am God’ phrase does not refer to the ego ‘I’ (any more than the equivalent in the Sanskrit phrase – ‘Tat Tvam Asi’ or ‘That Thou Art’ – does either) because the ego ‘I’ is the stream. RESPONDENT: I told you yesterday that these early speakings before 1933 are not valid ... RICHARD: Aye, and Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti told you yesterday (in the quote I provided) that there had been no fundamental change in him from the 1930’s, 1940’s but that there had been [quote] ‘considerable change in expression’ [endquote] ... meaning all that had changed was the wording he used. For example, his expression ‘step out of the stream’ refers to the same thing as stepping off, or stopping, the ‘wheel of birth and death’ (aka reincarnation) ... which he makes clear at the end of the text in question where he says [quote] ‘reincarnation, that is, incarnating over and over again, is the stream’ [endquote]. RESPONDENT: [I told you yesterday that these early speaking before 1933 are not valid] he was enlightened like you. RICHARD: Are you saying that before 1933 he was enlightened and that after 1933 he was not? RESPONDENT: Is like me saying for Richard, Richard exist only the absolute. You got it? RICHARD: Ha ... you are way out on your own if you are trying to make the case that Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti was actually free of the human condition (aka beyond enlightenment). So far out as to be risible.
RESPONDENT (to Respondent No. 27): May be the parts Richard is reporting are before 1927. RICHARD: Why do you say ‘may be’ when I provided the dates for you at your express request
only a few months ago? Vis.: [Respondent]: ‘I have his books and not the volumes, can you please give me the date of the speech,
because I should like to read it all of it. [Richard]: ‘The dialogue from the book ‘The Wholeness Of Life’, about
image-making going on after the death of the organism, was held in the afternoon of May 20 1976 (dialogue VI was in the morning);
the quote from ‘Talks in Saanen 1974’, about a person’s thought of themselves going on as it is now when they die, was the
6th Public Talk and held on the 25th July; the quote from his ‘Truth is a Pathless Land’ speech, about the only spirituality
being the incorruptibility of the eternal self, was on August 2, 1929; the quote from his early writings (Volume V), about
reincarnation being a fact for him, and not a belief, was expressed in *1931*; and the quote about reincarnation being a
fact for him because he knows it (‘Early Writings’ Volume IV) was in a talk at the Ommen Camp in *1930*. [emphasis
added]. RESPONDENT (to No. 27): I asked him to give the whole speech, but he never did. RICHARD: I provided those dates because you said [quote] ‘I have his books and not the volumes can you please give me the date of the speech, because I should like to read it all of it’ [endquote] further above ... that you now say ‘may be’ the quotes are before 1927 indicates that, not only did you not take any notice of the dates I provided for you at your request, but that you never did read the volumes for yourself either, and are now using my not giving you the ‘whole speech’ as some kind of way out of addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said. ‘Tis no wonder he went on and on so much about how to listen, eh? RESPONDENT: Richard, we all know the life story of JK. He past through many stages. I have all his speeches from 1933 till the last talk. His early writings are of no value. RICHARD: This is what I wrote immediately below the response I provided for you a few months ago when you expressly asked me for the dates so that you could read the whole speech for yourself: [Richard]: ‘For those who dismiss his earlier words I provide the following quote: [Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti]: ‘You asked a question: Has there been a fundamental change in K from the 1930’s, 1940’s? I say, no. There has been considerable change in expression’. [endquote]. As you ignored it back then you will probably ignore it now ... howsoever, do you notice that you shifted your cut-off date, as to what you consider is of value or not, from 1927 to 1933 when it turned out that your previous excuse for not addressing yourself to the reality of what Mr. Jiddu Krishnamurti actually said fell flat on its face? If so, you may – just may – be inclined to examine exactly what is going on in your mind ... to watch to see if it twists and turns and ducks and weaves in order to avoid what is being presented. Because there are still the quotes from after 1933 to address yourself to yet. RESPONDENT: Can you give me the year of Saanen speeches please? RICHARD: If you would highlight, make bold, capitalise, or in any other way make outstanding, where I said anything about ‘Saanen’ in any of the above text it will be most appreciated.
RESPONDENT: Let’s say that Peter did not suggested you to make this site. RICHARD: You must be referring to this:
RESPONDENT: Then you die and another one rediscover the AF. He claims to be the first because nobody here in Europe for example have ever heard about Richard in Byron Bay. RICHARD: Then when this (abstract) person goes public it would sooner or later be drawn to their attention that there has been another ... and they would be delighted that Richard had written about his experience as they could then compare notes, as it were, and thus advance human knowledge. RESPONDENT: So the same situation might happen with someone before you he gained AF but did not made it public. Why is this impossible? RICHARD: As an actual freedom from the human condition requires an all-inclusive altruism to effect – and altruism wipes away selfism completely – it would be a contradiction, not only in terms, but in effect to not pass on a report of the discovery of the already always existing peace-on-earth to one’s fellow human beings. Put simply: because of the inherent character of fellowship regard here in this actual world if this (abstract) person ‘gained AF but did not made it public’ – that is, kept it to themselves – it ain’t an actual freedom from the human condition. There are times I am particularly well-pleased not to be a logician ... and this is one of them.
RESPONDENT: Then why you did not make it public and you was waiting for Peter to tell so? RICHARD: But he did not tell me to ‘make it public’ ... his suggestion was to put sections of the manuscript I had written on a portable typewriter out on the internet rather than just publish via the traditional paper-back route (computers were so foreign to me prior to 1997 it was a major achievement to get an ATM to work properly and it had never occurred to me to do such a thing). Not that he knew anything more about them than I did ... we learnt as we went along.
CORRESPONDENT No. 44 (Part Eight) RETURN TO THE ACTUAL FREEDOM MAILING LIST INDEX RETURN TO RICHARD’S CORRESPONDENCE INDEX The Third Alternative (Peace On Earth In This Life Time As This Flesh And Blood Body) Here is an actual freedom from the Human Condition, surpassing Spiritual Enlightenment and any other Altered State Of Consciousness, and challenging all philosophy, psychiatry, metaphysics (including quantum physics with its mystic cosmogony), anthropology, sociology ... and any religion along with its paranormal theology. Discarding all of the beliefs that have held humankind in thralldom for aeons, the way has now been discovered that cuts through the ‘Tried and True’ and enables anyone to be, for the first time, a fully free and autonomous individual living in utter peace and tranquillity, beholden to no-one.
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