June 1 2025

CLAUDIU: But I think the missing ingredient is… basically the decision to do it, to go all-in. I definitely see now that the self-centered aspect of myself still has a powerful pull that it’s easy for me to fall into. I think this is what is ‘overcome’ when going out-from-control in the way Richard, Geoffrey, & Vineeto were. And then indeed as there’s no more escape hatch it will happen on its own.

VINEETO: Hi Claudiu,

I am pleased that you recognized that what you (with encouragement from me at the time) had called being out-from-control, a different way of being – has turned out not to be the Out-from-Control “Richard, Geoffrey & Vineeto” described. (…)

Just to have some common understanding about what you are referring to –

Richard: Thus the virtual freedom being referred to in ‘Richard’s Journal’ is, of course, the full-blown experiencing of it: an out-from-being-control and, thus, different way of being nowadays known as an ongoing excellence experience (EE). (…) This penultimate out-from-control/ different-way-of-being is barely distinguishable from a pure consciousness experience. It was from this ongoing excellence experiencing that pure consciousness experiences occurred on a near-daily basis – sometimes two-three times a day – for the identity inhabiting this flesh and blood body all those years ago. (…) Being out-from-control/ in a different-way-of-being implicitly requires pure intent. (Library, Virtual Freedom)

Geoffrey: To me out-from-control implies being naiveté, being in an ongoing excellence experience, having allowed pure intent to be dynamicallyoperative, being on aride, the ride of a lifetime,the process from which thereis no coming back,resulting from a once-in-a-lifetime decision…Out-from-control is grand, thrilling, is the ride to one’s destiny! It also includes being benevolence, and a generalcaring/ considerationfor others.
[an ongoing excellence experience means to be naiveté itself which is to be the closest one can to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’].

Richard: ‘Vineeto, who is now fully out-from-control/ in a fully different-way-of-being, and thus on my side of that enormous wall of fear completely encircling all of humankind, ...’ (24.12.2009)

This is really an excellent acknowledgement/ insight in that you now can see your way forward to in fact traverse the wall of fear, become naïve all the way to being naiveté, become harmless, considerate, caring, inclusive, likeable and liking, benevolent, benign and magnanimous – non-sudorifically, with joy and delight because it’s the best way a ‘self’ can be and appreciate this magnificent planet we all live on.

CLAUDIU: But this has got me all looking around, now that I’m confident I am not out-from-control in the way Geoffrey was at the end (‘constantly accelerating’) I know there’s that next step I can take, which will be smaller than the step to self-immolating, in other words it will make it easier.

VINEETO: The quicker you drop any plan and/or map and/or concept you might have in your head and start living naïvely, the easier it will be to experientially find out the next step the moment you take it. Mental maps are the opposite of being naïve and they have an inherent flaw that imagination takes over and pretends one is already where one wants to be according to the concept.

CLAUDIU: But maybe the way to do it is just to be vigilant and purposefully choose not to go down the self-centric route (yet again), due to all the above (caring, altruism, blessed oblivion), which for both of us it seems like it does lead to something that we experience like being out-from-control, but indeed to keep doing that and ‘stabilize’ in it (in the sense of making it my baseline) and then from there it’ll be easier/more obvious how/more obviously sensible to make that irrevocable decision.

VINEETO: Ha, the addiction to sudorifically finding one’s way through an imagined jungle of chores and traps is not easy to abandon, hey, but it’s really worthwhile. Make friends with not knowing what’s going to happen next, with experimenting living without plan and scheme, don’t envision you have to ‘tick off’ ‘self’-set tasks. It’s not vigilance you need, it’s a change in attitude towards life itself and towards your fellow human beings. Re-discover how to play and play together.

Vineeto: I remember clearly one day sitting in a circle of 5 friends, utterly relaxed despite the fact that I had never met one of them in person, and I noticed that I had no personal agenda whatsoever, no plan to stir the conversation into a particular direction, nothing to emphasize or hide, no self-centredness or favouritism, no shame, shyness, embarrassment, no power or drive – I was just being myself as I was. I sat in this group, as one of many, and my sole interest was that everyone present (including me as one of those present) enjoyed themselves/ obtained the maximum benefit from our meeting. I experienced myself as being unreservedly at ease and utterly benign and wasn’t driven to say anything unless it contributed to the overall quality of the conversation. (Direct Route, James, 16 January 2015)

Cheers Vineeto

June 1 2025

VINEETO: This is really an excellent acknowledgement/ insight in that you now can see your way forward to in fact traverse the wall of fear, become naïve all the way to being naiveté, become harmless, considerate, caring, inclusive, likeable and liking, benevolent, benign and magnanimous – non-sudorifically, with joy and delight because it’s the best way a ‘self’ can be and appreciate this magnificent planet we all live on.

CLAUDIU: But this has got me all looking around, now that I’m confident I am not out-from-control in the way Geoffrey was at the end (‘constantly accelerating’) I know there’s that next step I can take, which will be smaller than the step to self-immolating, in other words it will make it easier.

VINEETO: The quicker you drop any plan and/or map and/or concept you might have in your head and start living naïvely, the easier it will be to experientially find out the next step the moment you take it. Mental maps are the opposite of being naïve and they have an inherent flaw that imagination takes over and pretends one is already where one wants to be according to the concept.

CLAUDIU: Sure but I don’t see the difference in what you said vs what I said? I wrote I “know there’s that next step I can take” (i.e. going out-from-control genuinely) while you write that I “now can see [my] way forward to in fact traverse the wall of fear” (i.e. going out-from-control genuinely), what’s the difference such as it makes the former a mental map but the latter not?

VINEETO: Hi Claudiu,

I understand, they do sound similar – I was more commenting on the tendency I have observed of following the finger on an imaginary map rather than naively experiencing the next moment without a plan but unwavering intent.

How do you know which is the next step – I know that ‘Vineeto’ didn’t know which was the next step to get out-from-control, even though Richard had explicitly urged ‘her’ to do just that –

Richard: … although I was not advised of her [Irene’s] death until the following day, within the hour I was as if lifted forward by a cresting wave (to utilise surfing terminology), impressing upon Vineeto the necessity of being out-from-control/ in a different-way-of being (most unusual of me to do so), and have been effortlessly riding this perfect wave ever since … (Announcement 1)

*

CLAUDIU: But maybe the way to do it is just to be vigilant and purposefully choose not to go down the self-centric route (yet again), due to all the above (caring, altruism, blessed oblivion), which for both of us it seems like it does lead to something that we experience like being out-from-control, but indeed to keep doing that and ‘stabilize’ in it (in the sense of making it my baseline) and then from there it’ll be easier/ more obvious how/ more obviously sensible to make that irrevocable decision.

VINEETO: Ha, the addiction to sudorifically finding one’s way through an imagined jungle of chores and traps is not easy to abandon, hey, but it’s really worthwhile. Make friends with not knowing what’s going to happen next, with experimenting living without plan and scheme, don’t envision you have to ‘tick off’ ‘self’-set tasks. It’s not vigilance you need, it’s a change in attitude towards life itself and towards your fellow human beings. Re-discover how to play and play together.

CLAUDIU: Humm I don’t see how what I wrote is “an imagined jungle of chores and traps” though.

VINEETO: It seems I haven’t been precise enough to be understood correctly. What I was responding to were your words “the way to do it is just to be vigilant and purposefully choose not to go down the self-centric route (yet again), due to all the above (caring, altruism, blessed oblivion) …” and “keep doing that and ‘stabilize’”.

Richard somewhere described ‘his’ change to out-from-control similar to changing to a higher ‘gear’ –

Richard: … where there would be a ‘slippage’ of the brain, somewhat analogous to an automatic transmission changing into a higher gear too soon, and the magical world where time had no workaday meaning would emerge in all its sparkling wonder, where I could wander for extensive periods in gay abandon with whatever was happening. (Richard, Personal Webpage)

Unfortunately I was unable to find the exact quote where Richard used a similar description when in January/ February 1981 the change into virtual freedom occurred comparable switching into a higher gear. He said he only fell out once and it was so unpleasant he never wanted to revert back to normal after it recommenced a few moments later.

This is to emphasize that the transition to being out-from-control is indeed a radically different-way-of-being, which can neither be achieved by “vigilance” nor by “keep doing that and ‘stabilize’” and arises out from being naiveté (see last tooltip in A Clay-Pit Tale). Also you are referring to “all the above (caring, altruism, blessed oblivion)” almost as an afterthought, something you just forgot to mention –

Richard: Yet without naiveté – the nearest a ‘self’ can get to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’ – pure intent will remain still-born. (Richard, Actual Freedom List, 60g, 1 November 2005).

When you said in two other messages –

Claudiu: This is just crazy, forgetting about the caring aspect lol

And

Claudiu: Ok so now that I somewhat care again (lol) it all makes sense.

– it makes me wonder what happened to pure intent, this actually occurring stream of benevolence and benignity which makes it impossible not to care or being considerate and endows one with virtual magnanimity and caring and benevolent generosity towards one’s fellow human beings. How can you just “forget about the caring aspect lol” as if you had just forgotten your keys when leaving the house?

CLAUDIU: If I put it differently what I would say is that being in an excellence experience is very familiar to me now, this is where caring, naiveté, fun, being likable & liking, etc., are all part of it without having to put effort into it (because the ‘beer’ is operant rather than the ‘doer’), and it’s way less self-centric.

VINEETO: It may be familiar as past experiences, the memory of which is a belief right now unless it is happening now. And unless it is presently happening then your conclusions (for instance of “without having to put effort into it”) are informed by the rational, logical, reasonable identity ‘Claudiu’, who cannot, by ‘his’ very nature, know how to move from the ‘doer’/controller to the naïve near-innocent ‘beer’ experiencing overflowing pure intent (because that is not ‘his’ territory).

CLAUDIU: It is very contrasted with going back to the regular self-centric way of being which is no fun at all by comparison. So what I’m saying it makes sense to do is, when being alive in the way of being like an excellence (or intimacy) experience, just decline to go back out of it back to the self-centric way of being. Like make the choice to not go back there. It seems like an obvious thing and I am not sure I need to do anything else actually lol. (ADDENDUM: I mean I think there is still actually going out-from-control from there but I think I will see where to do that/ it’ll be obvious how to do it, as a natural consequence of doing this, not going back to self-centric ways). (…)

VINEETO: First you will need to abandon “the regular self-centric way of being” to contrast it with something else.

That is what I mean by working along a concept, a map, rather than moving one step experientially while you are doing it.

Here is something for you to ponder: Richard had neither a blue-print nor a map nor anyone’s reports of what happened to them on the way to an actual freedom. He figured it all out by himself. However, what he had in abundance was naiveté (the naïve boy from the farm, as he kept saying).

One would think that those who have all these past reports, explanations and confirmation available for their own experiences would be better off now, but the cunning of the genetic/social identity can and does use any opportunity to turn a helpful tool into a stumbling block. As such pure intent is vital, essential.

CLAUDIU: Does it make sense, do you still see it as a sudorific thing when I put it that way?

VINEETO: The alternative of “sudorific” is not its logical opposite as in “without having to put effort into it” but a major ongoing re-experiencing of your way of being (without the ‘controller’).

A bit like what you said in your next post –

CLAUDIU: Yea it’s more like a not-sure-what-will-come-next, it doesn’t make sense to plan the next steps for how to self-immolate. Although all the stuff I discussed w/ Geoffrey and we discussed here is all relevant to keep in mind I suppose. Will see how it goes.

VINEETO:

Richard: Naiveté is so vital to freedom. This is because even the strictest application of moralistic and ethicalistic injunctions will never lead to the clean clarity of the purity of living the perfection of the infinitude of this material universe. Purity is an actual condition – intrinsic to this universe – that a human being can tap into by pure intent. Pure intent can be activated with earnest attention paid to the state of naiveté. To be naïve is to be virginal, unaffected, unselfconsciously artless ... in short: ingenuous. Naiveté is a much-maligned word, having the common assumption that it implies gullibility. Nevertheless, to be naïve means to be simple and unsophisticated.

Pride is derived from an intellect inured to naïve innocence; to such an intellect, to be guileless appears to be gullible, stupid. In actuality, one has to be gullible to be sophisticated, to be wise in the ways of the real world. The ‘worldly-wise’ realists are not in touch with the purity of innocence; they readily obey the peremptory decrees of the cultured sophisticates. … Human beings have not ‘lost their innocence’ ... they never had it in the first place.

Innocence is something entirely new; it has never existed in human beings before. It is an evolutionary break-through to come upon innocence. It is a mutation of the human brain. Naiveté is a necessary precursor to invoke the condition of innocence. One surely has to be naïve to contemplate the profound notion that this universe is benign, friendly. One needs to be naïve to consider that this universe has an inherent imperative for well-being to flourish; that it has a built-in benevolence available to one who is artless, without guile. (Library, Topics, Naiveté)

Cheers Vineeto

June 2 2025

CLAUDIU: I think there’s just a disconnect here. The funny and delightful thing is that from the self centric way of being it’s a big social identity issue, wanting to show that I “know the answer” and defend myself. But writing now from the being naive way of being it just doesn’t ‘matter’ at all haha, at least this aspect of it.

The way to proceed is rather to go from an out from control way of being which is what being naïveté is, which is also called an excellence experience. This isn’t an out from control virtual freedom, the distinction there (which I asked Richard about) is that pure intent isn’t fully and dynamically operative yet. But that’s just words describing something I haven’t experienced yet so it’s not so relevant now except as to know there’s something ‘more’ (but it is unknown to me what that is like).

VINEETO: Hi Claudiu,

I demure. You can only proceed from where you are at. How can you “go from an out from control way of being” when you are not in “an out from control way of being”? How can you go from “being naïveté” when you are not “being naïveté”? Being naïveté itself is to be permanently out-from-control.

Richard: A rather quaint clay-pit tale which nonetheless depicts the range of naïveness from being sincere to becoming naïve and all the way through being naïveté itself⁽⁰¹⁾ to an actual innocence.

⁽⁰¹⁾To be naïveté itself (i.e., naïveté embodied as a childlike persona with adult sensibilities), which is to be the closest one can to innocence whilst remaining a ‘self’ (innocence is where ‘self’ is not), one is both likeable and liking for herewith lies tenderness and/or sweetness and togetherness and/or closeness whereupon moment-to-moment experiencing is of traipsing through the world about in a state of wide-eyed wonder and amazement as if a child again (guileless, artless, ingenuous, innocuous)—yet with adult sensibilities whereby the distinction betwixt being naïve and being gullible is readily separable—simply marvelling at the sheer magnificence of this oh-so-material universe’s absoluteness and unabashedly delighting in its boundless beneficence, its limitless largesse, as being the experiencing is inherently cornucopian (due to the near-absence of agency which ensues when the controlling doer is abeyant and the naïve beer is ascendant), with a blitheness and a gaiety such that the likelihood of the magical fairy-tale-like nature of this paradisaical terraqueous globe, this bounteously verdant and azure planet, becoming ever-so-sweetly apparent, as an experiential actuality, is almost always imminent. [Emphases added]. (A Clay-Pit Tale, last tooltip)

Given that you recognized that you are not out-from-control, i.e. not consistently in an excellence experience or intimacy experience, with the ‘controller’ still operating, not “being the experiencing [which] is inherently cornucopian”, fully comprehending this will all of your ‘being’ experientially, this is the only point from where to start.

CLAUDIU: So what I was attempting to convey, perhaps poorly, is that the way to continue from here seems to be to more consistently be naïveté, to be more and more of the time in this excellence experience way of being rather than not. I put ‘stabilize’ in squotes cause it’s not a great word, but don’t know what a good one would be. But basically to be it more consistently.

VINEETO: To say it again for emphasis, the change from being in a methodological, in-control virtually freedom to a dynamic out-from-control different way of being is a paradigm shift, not “to be more and more of the time” in the way you have been –

Vineeto: Unfortunately I was unable to find the exact quote where Richard used a similar description [“somewhat analogous to an automatic transmission changing into a higher gear”] when in January/ February 1981 the change into virtual freedom occurred ... (Actualism, Actualvineeto, 1 June 2025a)

To use a physical-world simile – there is a major difference between driving a car and flying in a rocket-ship.

CLAUDIU: And the way doesn’t seem so different from establishing a baseline of feeling good, it’s a matter of noticing when I have fallen out of it and getting back to it soonest.

Yea I do think we are saying the same thing. Last few days have oscillated from being in control self-centric way of being and feeling or wondering if everything is horribly awry and I’m way off track, to the out-from-control naive way of being and it’s like oh ok I’m basically going in the right direction. As of now I do think I’m basically on the right track, but the doing/being of it will be the proof in the pudding of course.

VINEETO: As the remainder of your reply is in a similar vein of just doing more of the same/ more consistently doing the same, and that we are talking about “the same thing”, let me use your own words of your report when your visit to Geoffrey was still more fresh in your mind –

Claudiu: Two other key pieces: the major one was we figured out that I had been trying to put myself into actuality, as in I as identity, as a feeling-being, will continue somewhat beyond self-immolation. There were many ways I had justified it, like “Oh but Peter said there was a continuity of consciousness…” and he’s like “Consciousness! You’re translating that into ‘identity’! It’s not identity that continues!” or “But I remember disappearing in a PCE” and he’s like “No you don’t! You are putting yourself into the PCE and spoiling the memory. This is why you are supposed to rememorate it not remember it.” etc. (…)

He also really impressed upon me just how significant this is. It’s not kid stuff. It’s not a playground ride or a roller coaster where you get on it then come back and get off and you’re back to where you were. It is a one-way ride with no return ticket. So long as the enormity of it is not grasped – to which fear and dread are a normal response – then it’s still just being on the playground ride.

Only once this is grasped then can the decision be made to take the leap and continue anyway (otherwise you’re just imagining yourself to be on a cliff but you’re really on a flat ground, and you don’t see the edge to jump off of but only think you do). So you have to actually get to the edge of the cliff (seeing the enormity of the extinction) and only then you can decide to jump. (…)

In any case the main take-aways for me from the trip was A) see that I really will disappear entirely, B) see the enormity and significance of this (the stakes are indeed high), C) stop kidding myself with fake hurdles that feel real, it really (for me at this point) is all avoidance tactics to avoid facing the real thing, which is the total extinction of it. In short, go up to the edge of the cliff, see if I really want it, then joyfully/gaily/cheerfully (not seriously) jump/traverse the wall of dread/whatever the metaphor, do whatever you can to do it, and then extinction will be nigh.

Even though this first of “two key pieces” does not appear in your list of “main take-aways” I think it is an all-important revelation – that you “had been trying to put myself into actuality”. It might well require a certain gestation period to fully grasp the enormity of the impact on your imaginary way of “trying to put myself into actuality”. Because when fully understood, with all of your ‘being’, not just intellectually, it will have/ would have, completely taken the carpet from under your feet. Hence my reference to a gestation period –

Richard: My experience with the peoples who have chosen to give felicity/ innocuity a go is, as a generalisation, that the necessary paradigm shift has usually been a gradual process of comprehension – not necessarily an instantaneous shift – and which paradigmatical change commences because of that choice ... and that choice mainly comes after a gestation period (which itself follows intelligent appraisal/ thoughtful consideration).

And, by way of personal example, I need only point to the six-month incubation period already mentioned. [Emphasis added]. (Richard, Actual Freedom List, No. 60g, 30 October 2005b).

It would be a pity if you missed the full import of what transpired during your visit to a fully free human being.

Cheers Vineeto