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Vineeto’s Correspondence on the Actual Freedom List Correspondent No. 2
VINEETO: This is Vineeto. I thought I join the conversation at this point. RESPONDENT to Peter: This is, I grant you readily, most excellent bait. I’m interested, OK? I’m listening. But what is it bait for? I don’t understand. How is this not a massive ego project? Find the ideal perfect relationship? Make it happen by effort of will? I’m not trying to dismiss what you are saying or instigate a conflict, I really am attempting to understand what you are getting at. What am I missing? Are you saying, plain and simply, ‘I have a plan for living with a woman?’ VINEETO: After investigating the outcome of my 17 years of spiritual search I had to come to the conclusion, that in terms of my ‘day to day’ life I had not achieved anything. I was still angry, still sad and still not able to live with a man in a peaceful, happy, fulfilling relationship. And I only had achieved a few hours of bliss and peace, sitting in my room, closing my eyes, retreating from this awful disturbing world and riding on my guru’s voice’s energy from the tape. It always faded when I started to communicate with people in day-to-day affairs. Despite my determination to become enlightened I had not managed to get rid of my desire for happiness and my dream to live with a man in a happy relationship. Something never jelled. It was always either – or. Sex and the real world had to be transcended on the way to the ultimate lasting bliss – and it was going damn slow too! Now, in my investigations into my own psyche in the ‘contract’ I had with Peter – to look at anything that would be in the road between us – I have discovered more of my ego than in all the years before. And not only discovered, also eliminated. And not only the ego, also the whole system of my precious heartful feelings got pretty well shattered and taken apart. There is simply no way to keep the good feeling and throw away the bad. I have written
about my journey at length in the You are welcome to check it out for yourself. It had been not only immense fun but it was also incredible helpful to do the whole process of cleaning myself up with a mate who had the same intentions, and also it was vital to keep me on the ground, to check out facts and belief, imagination and actuality. And I could see on the results right away, if I was off into some trip or really meeting the other person without any imagination in the road. Absolutely recommendable. And what is the good of enlightenment, if there is no peaceful equal living with another person – and the other gender is usually the ultimate test, it usually being the eternal battle. After all, I have only one life, only this moment to be happy (or miserable) and why not live it in the best and most pleasurable way possible? Free, independent, harmless, fully alive and in my senses, with sex as the icing on the cake! No. 2, I really enjoy your scrutiny and your detailed interest. It is such good fun to talk about freedom and tell the stories of investigation and success. Great, you’re here!
RESPONDENT: I just finished reading Richard’s Journal, finally got some time and spent the weekend reading it, so now I feel like I can talk with you again. I can hear the freedom he describes singing to me. I can feel the intention too, it has always been there, but I have only recently recognized it. I’ve had the PCEs Richard describes. Quite a few of them actually, this past year especially. Have seen in them that in spite of what I usually believe, there is nothing to fear in the universe, that it is utterly and completely friendly, including death. VINEETO: Yes, that is how I experience it too. The peak experiences are feeding my intent, the urge me to do something about the time when I am not having a peak experience. The memory of these perfect moments, hours or days have always been driving me forward, to investigate further, to face fear, pride, embarrassment, loneliness, doubt and dread. And these peak experiences have been my reference point, the lively proof, that it is a fact that the solution to all my problems lies 180 degrees in the opposite direction than I had always searched for. The fact of experiencing the moment of being alive as a direct intimacy with everything around me made it impossible to turn this into another belief-system. With that clarity one can face and investigate any ghost in one’s cupboard until it is eliminated. RESPONDENT: A ring-necked lizard has been sunning itself on a rock, accompanied by lizardly calisthenics. It darted off a moment ago in some haste. Then the cat moved slowly into view, cautious, each paw tentative, blue gaze sweeping the rocky ground. We would like to call what motivated that wise alert sunlit animal to flee ‘fear’ wouldn’t we? I suspect the animal’s awareness and reaction to danger was experienced without any sense of ‘Oh no, what should I do?’ that I associate with human psychological fear, but rather the alert, fully aware action of basic animal intelligence operating to preserve its functioning. An active, momentary knowing of what to do without the need to stop and consult any kind of map. Yes, the animal had ‘fear’ but it was fully experienced fear with no psychological overlay, just pure reaction as it needed to occur, nervous system fight or flight response activation, and boogey! But who knows, maybe it was terrified. VINEETO: Whatever ‘ghost’ of my conditioning, my instincts, emotions or beliefs I have encountered up to now – the core of each one of them was fear – fear to die. This instinct for survival that the self reproduces ceaselessly is quite a curious phenomenon. And yet there is a switch to every fear, however intense, and that is the thrill to find out, to accept the adventure and take a step beyond my self-set limits. Often it took hanging in fear and suffering for some time until I had enough of it and was ready to face it and investigate. But one gets more experienced each time and the success has made me more daring yet until I was ready and eager to take on the challenge of death itself, to find out how to eliminate myself completely. Up to now it has been an utterly thrilling journey and still is. One never knows what trick lies around the next corner. A bit like a Houdini show! RESPONDENT: The other day I wasn’t feeling well and after a meeting here at the hospital as I stood up to leave, splitting headache, tremulous, I almost fainted, and when it was happening, I felt nothing like concern for myself, for someone who was sick, or anything like that. What I felt was fear, not about my condition or possible damage to my physical self, but fear about having my weakness exposed to others, and what I normally would call this fear is ‘embarrassment.’ This is simply the truth. That is the kind of a creature ‘I’ am – I don’t actually care for myself but only my appearance – am I safe? will they like me? – in the eyes of others. I recognize it as delusion. And have also recently realized that the only place in the world where there is cruelty – fear – and sadness is within myself. But I have a lot of both, especially the sadness. They are what got me looking. Is there something else to be done besides pay attention to them? How is this identity dismantled? VINEETO: ‘Paying attention’ is something that I have heard the Enlightened Ones use a lot. The idea is to step outside of that particular emotion and ‘rise above’ it where the problem does not exist. Unfortunately it only works for a very short time. As soon as one comes back into ‘the world’, ‘the marketplace’ and the body, those problems are all waiting. Peter describes it at length in his journal in ‘Spiritual Search’ and ‘God’. What I found fascinating with Richard’s method is that you can actually eliminate the problem and it will never return. Asking myself the question of ‘how am I experiencing this moment of being alive’, I can quickly find out what is not perfect. Tracking the particular emotion, mood or feeling back to its source I usually found the underlying conditioning, belief and fear. When I questioned the belief and checked against the facts of the situation, the belief cannot hold water. Some actions or emotions I could simply stop applying because they were obviously silly. Others I had to investigate deeper and tackle the fear involved when dismantling a dear held value, a chunk of identity or a ‘holy cow’. Another very powerful question was: ‘who am I in relation to other people?’ It brought the point home to me that everything I think myself to be is in someway or other related to other people. Once I found the cause for a particular behaviour and the underlying fear, I could then easily decide what is ‘silly’ and what is ‘sensible’. It becomes a fascinating journey into the intricate web of one’s psyche, untangling oneself from one string after the other, may they be personal or collective held beliefs. RESPONDENT: I am alone, have no companion with intentions similar to mine. VINEETO: Whenever I needed to sort something out and got stuck with it, it was and is indeed very helpful to talk to a like-minded person. But as well as talking to Peter I used writing as a tool for clarification, either writing down my story or posting a letter to the mailing list. Just to have to put it into words for someone else to understand and to be ruthlessly honest with myself in my investigations were already the first acts of clarifying my inner mess. Slowly my scientific scrutiny has improved as I became more daring, ie the brain started functioning more and more with clarity and purity and less distorted and clouded by ‘self’-produced emotions and beliefs, as it had been trained to. After I had decided that I actually wanted to clean myself up from being malicious and sorrowful, my intent made me use every situation as indicator to ‘get the bugger by the throat’. Sorting myself out at work – I work in a sannyas-company, my former spiritual peer-group – was as much part as of it as checking out the gender differences in the relationship. Cleaning oneself up results in seeing the world and other people with different eyes, less driven by the miserable interpretation of one’s sorrow and fear and more receptive to seeing it as the delightful place it is. And who knows, someone might be attracted by the results you are achieving in your daily life... RESPONDENT: Have been following your posts with interest. Thanks. VINEETO: I am simply delighted to have yet another person to talk to about my favourite subjects – the discoveries of what it is to be a human being. I am glad you got so much out of reading Richard’s Journal and our posts.
VINEETO: Thank you for your quick reply. I see that Alan has already responded to part of your writing. It is such good fun to have a lively discussion about various fascinating issues going on between us! RESPONDENT: I wonder though, if attempting to re-create these peak experiences isn’t a little bit like a kid who had an ice cream cone, and when it is gone, wants another one, and imagines she might have one all the time. How could one not want this? But the wanting itself seems to me to be a statement of the problem. VINEETO: When I started my spiritual journey, my driving force was to get out of this miserable world I was living in. The promise was that I would be able to live in the land of bliss, once I am able to get rid of the ego – die as an ego. But then at the same time the rule was not to want anything, to surrender my will, and I ended up being dependent on the Master to tell me what to do and what to aim for. Also I ended up going round in circles because to get what I want I had to give up wanting to get it... After meeting Richard and Peter it took me a few month and a mind-shattering peak-experience to understand that Actual Freedom is in fact something completely and diametrically opposite to the spiritual path. It is not even an expansion of the spiritual. It is slowly, slowly seeing through the immense web our psychic world is made of, understanding and seeing (getting) that ALL of the psychic world is nothing but an enormous collective passionate belief-system. And that there is an actual world beyond imaginary belief – the peak experience. Living in a peak-experience everything is perfect, everything is obvious, already happening without me having to control or direct it, in fact it can only happen if ‘I’ am not there. This memory I take back when I become ‘normal’ again, this then works as the thread, the sincere intent to move further into scary enquiries. So I know what I want and I need exactly this will and intent to overcome the fears and doubts which appear when I start cleaning myself up. ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’ is the only question I need to check out what is happening now. Nothing else counts. Half an hour ago or tomorrow don’t count. And if I am not happy now, then there is something to do, to find out, to clean up. Which doubt, which objection, which emotion is preventing me from being happy now. It look so simple one thinks there must be a catch. But this is all there is to it. This method is so devastatingly effective and that is the scary bit – it works! And once you see that it works, you become more daring and question yet another threshold of a dearly held belief or ‘Truth’. You will discover that however dear and proven those ‘Truths’ seem, that they are never based on facts. RESPONDENT: My vocabulary is not advanced. What I mean by ‘paying attention’ is to experience fear or sadness directly, to feel them without attempting to move away, such as with a belief or an activity of some sort that will distract me from them. I suppose this must arise from a higher level belief of sorts that experiencing what is happening directly leads to a ‘truthful’ response to what is actually so, to have ‘awareness in the driver’s seat’ rather than the continuos reactivity of the ego. VINEETO: Asking myself the question: ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive’ I can quickly find out what is not perfect. With this question I can always get to the underlying cause of the particular emotion, which prevents my being happy right now. It is understanding and seeing that emotion and what it derives from that then frees me from its impact – that is, if I am ready to investigate and discard it. For instance, love was such a high valued emotion that it took a lot of investigating into facts until I was ready to question its validity and sensibility to provide happiness – until I could admit that it is this cherished love that causes jealousy, hate, war, dependency, sorrow, misery and, like Compassion, superiority. Seeing it as what it is ripped quite a hole in my (female) identity, but the miseries of love ceased to hold any attraction for me. Does this description of how I eliminate emotions and belief make any sense to you? Is it something you could try out? I am very curious as what you will make out of it! RESPONDENT: ‘Am I ready to die?’ is another question I like. VINEETO: Once I know with absolute certainty what I want to ‘die’ for, it becomes easier. The joy of coming more and more to my senses, to experience this body being alive and enjoying this very aliveness puts ego and soul, instincts, emotions and beliefs in their place – more and more obviously redundant. The experience of ‘almost freedom’ has its own magnetism. It urges you to discover deeper and deeper what it is to be a human being, what your shackles and fears are, and becomes an obsessive journey that is so delicious, so fascinating, so thrilling, that you happily agree to disappear at the end.
RESPONDENT: ‘Love’ hits me where it hurts. I think you are right. It has produced the deepest suffering I have known. So I look at it with everything I've got, which I can’t help, it hurts so much I have to look. It is quite selfish. I would find it difficult not to look at a freshly amputated limb as well. In the dictionary is a definition based in desire and attachment, and perhaps a sense of ‘caring’ may be referred to.
Essentially a definition based on a feeling the self has of connection, desire, and attachment for a person, situation, or thing. Always referring to possession, ‘my wife, my son’. Of course, it is ridiculous to use a dictionary for such a thing when we may look within ourselves. VINEETO: Yes, I understand from where you are coming from. Love hurts, not only while it is happening with its anxiety, dependence, and resulting petty arguments and revenge. But it hurts even more when the other suddenly terminates the relationship for whatever reason. And one would rather take all the blame for its failure than to doubt and question the very idea of ‘love’, humanity’s strongest hope in the face of loneliness, separation, aggression, sorrow and desperation. Just the hope that there is a solution to all those devastatingly destructive human instincts is so soothing. I like it that you looked in the dictionary as well as asking yourself what love consists of. After all, ‘love’ is a dream shared by everyone else on the planet. RESPONDENT: As you and the other Actual Freedomers have stated, ‘love’ creates suffering. I will sign in here. It does because of the falseness of the ego. The falseness occurs in at least three ways.
VINEETO: Yes, you are spot on. When love is in operation, there is only love’s picture that one can see. That very picture is the reason why one can’t be intimate with the person one is with. Love is the very emotion – or the very package of emotions – that makes it impossible to experience direct intimacy with the other human being. When I met Peter he made a proposition: lets live together in peace and harmony, without love, but in intimacy. At the time I had no idea what he was talking about, but was intrigued by his readiness for commitment and by the word ‘intimacy’. In long years of past relationship I had learned that love had failed again and again. Also I had lived with a woman for some time whose husband had just died after what everyone considered the perfect relationship. She felt herself to be as ‘amputated’ as you describe yourself. So even if love had worked between a man and a woman, there was still the horror that one of them will die first. There is always one who dies first, or leaves. There is always one who is left behind. Nevertheless, I kept up the hope and belief into the ‘Higher’ or ‘Ideal’ Love, that the Gurus talk about. Although I had been a devoted meditator for some 15 years, I had never reached that state of ‘pure love’ relating to my fellow human beings, it remained but an unreachable cloud of hope, a far away goal to be achieved one day... It took a few months of thorough investigation into the different beliefs around love until I understood and experienced, that every concept, belief and feeling I hold, positive or negative, keeps me from experiencing the world and another human being as he/she is. It was quite stunning and shocking when intimacy happened for the first time. Delicious in its experience it was nevertheless shocking in its implications for me. I could not deny the experience of intimacy that I had at the time and had to acknowledge the facts of why it was so direct and intimate – but now I had to question all my relating to other people, friends, the spiritual peer-group, parents, acquaintances and work-mates. And, most important of all, this experience of intimacy questioned my relationship to the Master which had been solely based on love and devotion and had held no intimacy at all. Experiencing another human being directly, without my ‘self’ in action ie. without preconceived ideas, beliefs, feelings of appreciation or rejection, without structure and time plan, as if for the first time, was such a delicious, ambrosial and obviously superior experience to any highs I had ever experienced in love. Mad and daring, I decided I wanted more of this, even if it would cost me all my friends, all my beliefs, everything I had considered of value up to then. And I did lose them all. But the intimacy and resulting peace and harmony that I live with Peter every day, 24 hours a day for the last 12 months without any disagreement, sulking, nagging, compromise, role-play or restriction is worth any sacrifice of hopes, beliefs and ideas. Further, I can also relate to people as they are, with no preconceived hopes or fear which allows an intimacy unexperienced in the times of ‘love’. RESPONDENT:
How to ‘eliminate’ ego? I do not know. Is it the source of suffering? Absolutely. VINEETO: I quote what Peter wrote in his glossary about ego (the first bit is from the dictionary...)
During my spiritual search, it has never been easy for me to locate this ego, to completely understand what it is I have to get rid of in order to become happy (enlightened). Once I came across Richard’s explanation, derived from his being enlightened and seen through the delusion it was, things suddenly made shocking sense: getting rid of the ego means wanting to keep the ‘good bits’ and throw away the ‘bad bits’. And the sorting out the ‘good bits’ from the ‘bad bits’ made it so confusing. Slowly I began to understand that the ‘good bits’ – love – are only there to heal, cover up and balance out the ‘bad bits’. Once I really get rid of the ‘bad bits’, the ‘good bits’ are redundant as well. They both prevent me from seeing a tree as a tree, a dog as a dog and a human being as a human being. Those overlaid emotions never let me experience the world as it is, there is always a ‘self’-related colouring that veils the clear perception. And once those both veils are taken off my eyes I can see the magnificence and magic in every tree, creature and human being. No emotion is needed to glorify it. This actual world is already perfect, it doesn’t need any enhancement by the ‘self’, the very sum of all our instinctual passions, emotions and beliefs, both ‘good’ and ‘bad’. Once I stop doing, feeling, proposing, interpreting, in short messing around, with the world as-it is, then everything is simply perfect. It is ‘I’ who is at the core of all the trouble. And this ‘I’ consists of ‘ego’ and ‘soul’, concepts and emotions, everything non-actual, everything that is not touchable, visible, audible, tastable or smell-able. Pretty radical, isn’t it! RESPONDENT: Where we may differ, I think, is that I don’t want to reject love, I just want to reject the cultural definition we have been stuck with for so long. Substitute ‘ego attachment’ for that. I think there is another love. I like another definition. The word cries for it. And I'm not talking about some Love Agapé belief. I think Richard has spelled it out, although he doesn’t seem to like the word love because it has many religious associations. There is something that occurs only with complete attention that is without any demand of the self. As in PCEs. Complete attention with no condition whatever, no intention, no seeking, no goal, no purpose other than to see, to listen, to fully attend. I want to call this state of actual attending ‘love’ but not to label it just to pretend to ‘know’ what it is. It isn’t ‘Compassion,’ as you say. It isn’t ‘feeding the babies’. It isn’t ‘serving the poor’. It isn’t ‘healing the sick’. And it certainly has nothing to do with the contract of marriage, although perhaps it could arise within a marriage, maybe similar to what you and Peter have. Yet this complete attention to what is actually so [Can we lend it the name love for a moment if that isn’t too disturbing, just to please me? Thank you, you may have the word back in just a minute, to dispose of as you wish.] can occur at any time and under any circumstances. Including the jump from a balcony, sitting in the sunlight, or sexual embrace. And anyone can love, none ‘better’ than any other. One doesn’t need words or ‘understanding’ for it! I think it is what we are meant to do. ‘The universe being aware of itself’ without condition. I think that is right on target. And I want to call it love. Perhaps out of sheer perversity I don’t want to squander the word love on what we normally use it for! Perhaps because it hurt me so much. Or perhaps I have some sense it is better used this way. I don’t know, but I have nothing to prove, it’s just how I see it. It may be that one loves continually in Richard’s actualized state, it sounds as if it might be so. It is the only thing that really matters. There is either complete attention, which I call love for just one more minute, thank you, or there is not, which is the state of being in the ego, or unconscious, or dead. And when we are love we are free, ‘actually free’ is a fine way to put it, if you wish, and we love like the sunlight, and the rain, and the wind, and the earth – because we are one. VINEETO: Complete attention is only possible if there is no personal investment in you whatsoever, in that moment. This complete attention is not something ‘I’ do, this attention is what is left when there is nothing else that distracts that attention or apperception. Then you simply delight in the very is-ness of things, people and events, without directing, feeling, fearing, inventing, controlling, planning or hoping. So in my experience, it is freedom from the ‘self’, freedom from ‘me’, the feeler and believer, that has to come first and then you don’t need any love. Without malice and sorrow one is simply benevolent, magnanimous, intimate with everyone and swimming in delight. You probably remember this from your PCEs. RESPONDENT: I want to keep love. – Now, you may have ‘love’ back. VINEETO: It struck me that when you say, ‘I want to keep love’, you already admit that it not actual. It is something you decide to keep or throw, it does not exist without your doing. But I do understand that ‘you’ want to keep it, it is an essential part of your identity, of ‘who you feel you are’. RESPONDENT: Do you meditate? I mean as in intentional practice? The interest is to share and learn. VINEETO: No, I don’t meditate any more. I had some 15 years of devoted spiritual effort with few tangible results. Meeting Peter and Richard I learned a much more efficient way of getting rid of the various ingredients of the ‘self’. I think, contemplate about a particular issue, which I find by asking, ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive’. Writing or talking usually facilitates and intensifies that investigation. Once the implications of the issue are understood, once I see what role they play in the structure of the ‘self’ – the very thing I am intending to eliminate – the problem disappears. It might turn up again with a little different twist, or as a subtler version, then I have to investigate again. As I said before, everything boils down to fear, fear to die. To get rid of that fear, ‘I’ will have to die. You can bet on that. I very much appreciate your interest and sincerity. It is a pleasure to exchange with you. For more information, check out what Peter has written in his Journal on ‘Living together’ and ‘Love’.
VINEETO: I’ve been thinking about your letter in the last few days and I wanted to tell you just another story about ‘love’... Love is like an appendix. As a doctor I’m sure you can appreciate the comparison. What I gather from your writing, your appendix is clearly infected, and badly so. And, I guess you agree, one never fixes up an appendix, it needs to be removed, actually often to save the patient’s life. Now, in the case of love, you are the doctor and you are the patient and there is no chloroform. The only operating knife you got is your intelligence. And when you cut, you need to be precise and careful, not to let any infected part of the appendix stay in the body. Ok, what I mean by appendix is the particular passionate dream we have with love. Men
dreaming one kind of dream, women dreaming another kind. I have written about the dream and how I got rid of it in
I guess, the man’s dream of love looks a little bit different to complement the female dream. I guess you know it pretty well by now. In my experience it was the dream – the longing, the frustration, the hope and despair, the loneliness – which hurt, not the actual being or not being with Peter. And it worked immediately. Psychically it might look like a cord, reaching out or being connected to a particular person and in my imagination I simply and boldly cut that cord. It is a sharp psychic pain or fear of pain and then it is over. The trick is then not to build up that cord of dreams again... Let me know if it works.
VINEETO: Once I stop doing, feeling, proposing, interpreting, in short messing around, with the world as-it is, then everything is simply perfect. It is ‘I’ who is at the core of all the trouble. And this ‘I’ consists of ‘ego’ and ‘soul’, concepts and emotions, everything non-actual, everything that is not touchable, visible, audible, tastable or smell-able. Pretty radical, isn’t it! RESPONDENT: Let’s say I’ve seen this is true, as indeed I have, with a few definition differences here and there not of much importance I think to the bottom line: my sense of self is the problem generator, and when it goes, there are no problems. The obvious question is a ‘how’ question, and my experience has been that all ‘how’ questions come from the sense of self itself and are based in the usual motivation of the sense of self, that being of course, fear, and are nothing more than an announcement of the presence of the sense of self. So my first question here for you becomes,
VINEETO: I am lost from where your question is coming from. Naturally, before you ‘jump into the water’ and try something new, you want to know about it. Fair enough. This is not a belief to be believed, but a method to be used. RESPONDENT: The obvious question is a ‘how’ question, and my experience has been that all ‘how’ questions come from the sense of self itself and are based in the usual motivation of the sense of self, that being of course, fear, and are nothing more than an announcement of the presence of the sense of self. VINEETO: I think you are stepping on your own tail with this roundabout thinking, and then wonder that you stumble. You cannot exhaust the ‘sense of self’ by thinking, but you have to actively eliminate it bit by bit. It is not fear that searches for the way out, but the memory of the PCE, where no fear exists. The intent is to have that PCE-like state for 24 hours a day. With success you become more bold and keep investigating in yet another belief which cause you suffering... RESPONDENT:
VINEETO: You take your PCE – the experience of no ‘self’ and no fear – and try and imitate it as closely as possible in your daily life, by the simple and effective question: ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive’. You can start by not complaining about the weather, by actually tasting the coffee you are drinking, by feeling the legs and feet walking on the corridors or by stopping another ingrained habit of complaining ... whatever you like to start with. This is about getting down from the thinking-it-out-chair and getting dirty, ie. you experiment with your life and find out if it works for you. I can only say it worked for me. There is no short-cut, no thinking, thinking, thinking, and then pop! This method is about cleaning yourself up practically, diligently and persistently by removing one cause of unhappiness and malice after the other. Peter wrote in his journal about fear:
Unless you have established for yourself a life in peace and harmony, with the basic needs taken care of, a life of Virtual Freedom, full of delight and joy, there is no basis to face the ‘big instinctual fears’. At least, this is my experience. If I tried to face death before I am firmly settled in ‘Virtual Freedom’ there is great danger to end in dread, madness or the delusion of enlightenment. Not recommended... Does that make it more clear to you? * VINEETO: P.S. for clarification about ‘ego’ and ‘soul’ and the difference between enlightenment and freedom I have copied three paragraphs of Richard’s correspondence on another mailing list –
RESPONDENT: Clarity does not arise, but the intensity of looking and listening to the ego is deepened. VINEETO: I see from our conversation that you seem to take Richard’s writing and his method as just another spiritual writing about how to get free from the ego. But his discovery has nothing, nothing at all, to do with any of the familiar spiritual approaches. His finding is not about getting rid of the ego, ‘watching’, and maybe becoming enlightened. In fact, actual freedom lies 180 degrees in the opposite direction to any spiritual beliefs whatsoever. Richard was enlightened for 11 years and with diligence and effort managed to work himself out of the massive delusion that enlightenment is. It is very hard when one lives inside the passionate belief-structure to see that the whole thing is only a belief-structure and not the ‘truth’. For me, when I understood it for the first time with all its implications, it was like leaving planet earth in a spaceship and seeing it as a globe hanging in space for the very first time. A completely different perspective indeed. RESPONDENT: Months after the shock wore off and I began to explore the amputation, I discovered there were two very different components to what I had previously thought of as ‘love.’ I now think of them as ‘ego attachment’ and ‘real love.’ We have discussed the ego attachment part in previous exchanges and I think we are in basic agreement about the nature of it, give or take a few terms and minor differences in word usages and definitions. The ‘real love’ that I saw left after all the elements of ego attachment were identified, is something completely unconditional, something that does not care whether she does or does not do as I wish, an awareness and regard that does not measure, assess, judge, possess, or expect. I believe it to be connected in a direct way to the kind of observing you describe as ‘my full attention and bare awareness each time we communicate.’ It is what I believe to be ‘real love.’ (Or ‘actual love’ if you wish!) What you and Peter are experiencing when you are free to interact this way. What do you think? VINEETO: See, you make a difference between ‘ego’ (something to get rid of) and ‘real love’ (something you want to keep). And then you say, ‘clarity does not arise’. How can it arise? Throwing away the ‘bad’ and keeping the ‘good’ has not worked for thousands of years. Humanity is still waging as many wars as 2000 years ago. Every Enlightened Master created yet another religion, and the religious wars are the most horrific ones. Last night I saw a re-run of ‘Oh! What a Lovely War’, a black-humour musical about the First World War. Seeing the soldiers in the trenches, used as canon-fodder for the game of numbers that the generals were playing was devastating, and all the soldiers were dying and killing for love. Men die for love of country, love for the family, to protect the ones they love, unconditionally. And after the war is over, the surviving men don’t talk about the horrors they lived through so as not to upset the ones they love. A continuum of malice and suffering – and it is called ‘real love’. No one ever puts these facts in one line and acknowledges that they are interrelated. I could still feel the impact of the horrors those men went through. They stand for all of the suffering and devastation humans go through in the course of the centuries. Seeing the facts of what causes the suffering made it clear once again that I want to do something about this horrendous situation, which is continuing today as horrendously as in the First World War. And the only thing I can do about it is to eradicate every trace of ‘self’ in me, and that includes the instinct of love, eliminate every reason why I would kill, hurt or even insult any other human being. And I know, as long as there is a trace of ‘me’ inside, I am still capable of violence when ‘push comes to shove’. RESPONDENT: ...is something completely unconditional, something that does not care whether she does or does not do as I wish ... (Or ‘actual love’ if you wish!) VINEETO: There is no actual love. Love is an emotion, created by our instinctual passions and beliefs and felt as hormonal surges in the physical body as well. But when love is unrequited it is easy to imagine it as unconditional because there is no fire-test in daily life. There is always a gain for the identity in feeling ‘unconditional love’. Heroic suffering is food for the ‘self’. Suffering keeps the identity intact. And one would still kill, if needed, to protect the object of one’s unconditional love. One suffers but one can stay as one is. In this way one is continuing what every human being has tried to do up to now: to keep the emotions and instincts and still be ‘good’. If you look around it has not brought any peace and happiness to the planet in thousand of years. RESPONDENT: If the self cleans the self up, and mine is fairly presentable just now, perhaps a little sad, what is left, after all is said and done, is still a self, a ‘me,’ an ‘I.’ Just dressed up real nice. VINEETO: You described it very well – this is as good as it gets within the Human Condition. The trouble is, in order to get rid of the ‘bad’ you have to throw the ‘good’ out first, which is created in the first place to keep the ‘bad’ under control. One only needs Love to counter-balance malice and sorrow, hate, jealousy, sadness, fear, greed... so something grand and good is aspired for to keep the lid on the ‘bad’, the animalistic instincts that are intrinsic in all of us. Meditation and Eastern Spirituality attempt to transform those instinctual passions and their resulting emotions into love and compassion, and I have experienced how that works. It is quite a powerful experience, when fear and sorrow are transcended into bliss, ‘truth’ and compassion. It swamps the whole psyche: seductive, overwhelming, radiant, and one realization of ‘truth’ follows another in an endless continuum of supposed insights. Very, very seductive indeed. One is easily taken in that this is the answer to everything. But this is not the emotionless pure clarity that I have experienced in the PCEs. This is not the solution, it hasn’t been for 5000 years of enlightenment’s history. Those instincts are never eliminated. Once you question bliss and discover the illusion it is, fear and dread pop up their ugly head again. What Richard discovered, and what Peter and I are now finding out for ourselves, is that there is the actual world once one has freed oneself of all beliefs, feelings and instinctual passion which the human psyche produces. This perception of the actual world is then bare of any emotions and feelings, both of ‘bad’ AND ‘good’, freed of any kind of imagination, freed of any distortion of the Human Psyche. RESPONDENT: Let’s say I’ve seen this is true, as indeed I have, with a few definition differences here and there not of much importance ... VINEETO: It is not merely ‘definition differences’ we are talking about. It is worlds apart. This is something nobody has ever dared to question before. Or have you found any kind of Guru or teacher who dared to question Love and Compassion, who dared to put his grand wonderful identity as ‘One-with-the-Whole’ at stake? Not a single one! All the Enlightened Ones keep their BEING in tact. They know WHO they are. So this conversation is not about definition differences. It is about a completely new understanding and approach to the human feelings, emotions and instinctual passions. It is about eradicating them, not merely transforming them. Actual Freedom is based on the acknowledgment that those feelings and passions are only software, not hardware – they can be deleted. But to eradicate my beliefs, feelings and instinctual passions means that everything that I know I am ceases to exist, and everything anybody ever claimed to know or to be ceases to be of any reference. This includes my beliefs in an immortal soul, a life after death or before birth, a god-like energy of the universe and a belief in the meaning of life. I am not surprised that hardly anybody has dared to take up the inquiry. It is a ruthless operation. But also it is the very best I have ever done in my lifetime. And it works. That may be scary because one really watches oneself dying, having less and less substance and identity to fall back on for one’s definition and reference. When I started to investigate Richard’s findings I had thought I was quite cleaned up, having been a morally ‘good’ girl and a spiritual seeker for years. So the first step on this new journey was to actually acknowledge the malice and sorrow that I was still carrying – like everybody else. It was not easy to acknowledge that I was as bad and as mad as everybody else, hanging on to my emotional identity, my feelings, my intuition, my beliefs. After 17 years of meditation and watching intently I was still neither enlightened nor happy and harmless. So I really had nothing left to lose – except the very idea of who I was, instincts, beliefs, emotions, pride, superiority, the whole lot. RESPONDENT: The obvious question is a ‘how’ question, and my experience has been that all ‘how’ questions come from the sense of self itself and are based in the usual motivation of the sense of self, that being of course, fear, and are nothing more than an announcement of the presence of the sense of self. VINEETO: See, the ‘how’ question-explanation is just used by the ‘self’ to avoid the looking. You prove to yourself that it is a hopeless exercise and then you are back in ‘safe’ desperation and searching. It reminds me of Richard’s expression: ‘the psychological and psychic entity is a lost, lonely, frightened and very, very cunning entity.’ The frightened produces the very cunning; you have to find out your tricks. If you ask, ‘where am I maintaining a belief instead of investigating facts’ and ‘why’, there might be an honest answer. And the knack is to start with the ‘good’ beliefs, the positive ones, the ones we want to keep because they seem so right, so nice, so sweet, so cozy, so honourable. It is belief itself that is the problem, not merely a matter of which belief is right or wrong. RESPONDENT: We screw up the world and ourselves with our ‘me’s’ and now we are going to fix everything within us with our ‘me’s’? VINEETO: See, another trick, you prove to yourself again that it cannot work. And then you say, ‘clarity does not arise’! Somebody has to clean yourself up, and nobody else is going to do it. I take it that you are ‘most earnestly looking here’. I think you just fell for your own trick again. RESPONDENT: What is doing the active elimination? VINEETO: Well it will have to be you, whoever you find inside of you who wants to do the job. Most probably he is called No. 2. There is no God and no Divine Grace who will honour your efforts by waving the magic wand. And as I said, it is the ‘good’ beliefs, which will show you your ‘soul’, your ‘self’. You could consider questioning the belief in ‘real love’? Or being a protector? Or an idea that you have how someone else should be or behave... RESPONDENT: My experience with PCEs is that they are a rather sudden, intense, seeing all the way through to the heart of the matter, cutting through all fear, all identity, all sense of ‘me’ and its associated purposefulness and with them there is a sense of completeness and belonging to the universe, just as actually I am, without any resistance whatsoever. VINEETO: PCEs are the flashlights in a basement of rubbish. One can enjoy being relieved from the misery and confusion, which is a wonderful thing to have. But when you have the PCE you can also look at the Human Condition from the clarity you have then and find out which particular bit stands out and needs to be tackled next. The clarity from the PCE always helped me to work out in which way I am obstructing perfection and that understanding then became my work-line. RESPONDENT: If ‘I’ knew of a button to push to bring it about continuously, I would push that button right now. VINEETO: There is no button, sorry. I found only heaps of rubbish obstructing this pure consciousness perception of the actual world on a permanent basis and that rubbish needed facing, questioning, abandoning, changing behaviour, losing identities, losing friends, losing the very ground I thought and felt I was standing on. Yes, wouldn’t it be nice, someone could push the button and then it’s all over? But the satisfaction from each belief I freed myself from was such a joy that it made every day of the journey fascinating and still does. RESPONDENT: And that is the problem. While there is any button pusher left, there can be no PCE. VINEETO: It is much more than just the ‘button pusher’ that is in the way. It is all that humanity has believed in up to now that needs to be investigated and eliminated – it is the very psychic and ‘self’-ish world we are living in, the way we see, feel, imagine, evaluate, reject everything we perceive. RESPONDENT: One would seem to be left with watching it intently. As I do now. VINEETO: Watching intently is not enough. One needs to investigate into each and every belief and why one wants to keep it, when this perfectly functioning world does not need any belief for growing trees, raining, thundering or turning carrots and potatoes into blood and bones. Why do we human think we cannot live without making everything into a picture or our own making? Imagination in its very nature is madly unlimited – and the very obstacle, for the world is already perfect – except for human beings, that is. ‘What is my objection to being happy and harmless?’ was one of the most effective questions that I would continually ask myself. RESPONDENT: Perhaps freedom will occur. The intention is certainly present. VINEETO: Freedom does not simply occur. You go about on the journey into yourself with a torch and a scalpel. It is an amazing and thrilling enterprise, I can tell you that. And each time you have operated successfully, there is a joy, a dance, an outbreak of freedom and perfection which makes it all worthwhile. In my experience it is so much more exciting and gratifying than just watching intently. And for a change – it works. RESPONDENT: Thank you Vineeto, I have truly enjoyed corresponding with you. Clarity does not arise, but the intensity of looking and listening to the ego is deepened. I am grateful. VINEETO: It sounds like you are closing the inquiry shop to this side of the planet. I think I gave you quite a range of information about what we are doing so you can make up your mind. Whether you want to keep love and the other values of humanity and stay watchful of the unwanted qualities or whether you want to explore something which lies 180 degrees in the opposite direction to love and enlightenment is completely up to you. Should you indeed be intrigued to explore further there is heaps more information on I have utterly enjoyed our conversation and I had great fun to tell more and more of my story to such an interested listener.
You see, I have already gone quite mad! With this song of John Lennon I wish you the best in whatever you want.
VINEETO: I am glad to hear so much about what you are doing and what you have experimented with in life. It gives me a better idea as to whom I am talking with on the other side. After all, you have the advantage to have read a whole journal about Peter’s and my life, while I rely on the sentences you are writing to get an understanding of what you are saying. RESPONDENT: Now I simply don’t have enough experience to have taken Richard’s writing as ‘just another’ anything because I’m new at this. The ‘just another’ part of what you said above is totally coming from you. What Richard calls ‘Tried and True’ is for me ‘Just Brand New’. Just a little bit less brand new in fact, than Richard and you are to me. So judge me in that light if you would please. I don’t have 21 or 17 years of experience with a spiritual journey or 11 years of ‘enlightenment’ (whatever that is, and I truly don’t know, but I suspect it isn’t real). VINEETO: To judge ‘Tried and True’ as ‘Tried and Failed’ you don’t need 17 years of spiritual journey but common sense. When I heard Richard or Peter say for the first time, ‘why don’t you judge the religion – Eastern or Western – by the outcome’, it hit me like a brick. Never even once had I looked at the factual outcome of what I was aiming for – how people are living in India, how Indians, especially enlightened ones treat women, how religious wars are raging in many parts of the world – to judge the workings and sensibility of what I was trying to achieve. At that time I felt quite stupid, clumsy, thick and thought I had wasted my time. But then, there had been nobody pointing it out to me and it seemed the best solution on offer at the time for the misery and desperation I felt about life. It does not take 20 years of spiritual experience to look, for a change, at the facts of the particular belief-system instead of the promised solutions that it never delivers. So you are not missing any ‘time done’ here. Everyone who dares to look further than the herd can find out the facts for him/herself. Maybe the frustration of having had so little success after so many years of effort helped me to get over my pride and fear so that I started looking in another direction. RESPONDENT: I had an experience this summer that showed me I belong in the universe completely, just as I am, and paying attention to everything in front of me was seen to be the most important thing in life to do. VINEETO: Could you tell me more about the experience and what kind of conclusions you have drawn from that experience? I am suss about the word ‘belong’ and ‘the universe completely’. It seems to point to a universe that has god-like qualities as in ‘taking care of one’ or that gives ‘assurance of belonging’ as of not being on one’s own. But I could be mis-interpreting... RESPONDENT: I’m not a ‘this’ or a ‘that’ identity. VINEETO: From my own experience and from my observations of other people I very much doubt this. I haven’t found anybody except Richard who has not got one or several identities. Here is a definition of identity taken from the dictionary and Peter’s glossary:
RESPONDENT: I’m a flesh and blood human being doing my very best to see what this life is about. < ... > My ‘spiritual approach’ consisted of ‘seeing the obstacles to paying attention’, because I had found that to merely want to pay attention is not enough, one must either BE attentive, or one must attend to the obstacles to attentiveness. I do not believe I was making a rash assertion to say we have some common ground, give or take a few definitions. But if you still think not, OK. VINEETO: I think the assumption that we have common ground is a very good start for this discussion. But, being a thorough person, especially when we are talking about beliefs, makes me question and investigate everything where we apparently differ. ‘Attending the obstacles to attentiveness’ I would translate into ‘eliminating every fear, every belief, every emotion that hinders my direct experience of the factual and actual world’. I don’t know if that is what you are attempting to do. Are you? RESPONDENT: I don’t need your endorsement or approval, but honestly, it does mean something to me, approval from others. I know I have plenty to learn in many areas. VINEETO: In my investigation I have made a difference between ‘needing approval’ and scrutiny. Since I embarked on my journey to freedom, every single person’s input has been of value to me for scrutinising myself, be it criticism or approval, because I would measure my reaction to their input on what I wanted to achieve ie be free from any emotional reaction and check if I was not kidding myself. Given that I, like everyone else, have this ‘very very cunning entity’ inside myself, I will use every help possible to dismantle the ‘self’s’ tricks to stay in existence. The ‘needing approval’ I know very well and I can say that it disappears as the need to maintain an identity vanishes. It is the identity that needs approval, given it is made up of other people’s opinion about me, as well as the instincts that everyone is born with. RESPONDENT: Why does my saying I see we have things in common make you seem to pull back, retreating into a ‘You don’t understand Richard’ position? VINEETO: I said: ‘It is not merely ‘definition differences’ we are talking about.’ And I still maintain that it is not only definition differences. Every difference in definition usually means a difference in belief, as I know from my own process of digging into my beliefs, emotions and instincts, and they need to be investigated before we know that we have things in common. As I have told you, it is good fun for me to be doing this and helps me to become clearer. Any communication about my favourite subject – and actual freedom from the Human Condition – is very welcome. RESPONDENT: Because it would be scary to be like me? As ignorant and clumsy and stupid? As inconsistent and confused? VINEETO: The journey so far has been also scary, yes, but incredible rewarding. I see it as no bad thing to be inconsistent and confused. After all, you are on a discovery journey. Ignorance, stupidity, inconsistency and confusion are part of the Human Condition that is being investigated. A bummer of a birthmark for each of us, that is true. The way to overcome the ignorance and confusion, created by the many beliefs, was to investigate the facts of each situation, and facts are simply facts. Further, it has taken many leaps to overcome pride and fear again and again, but the fascination and thrill of investigating and eliminating my own shackles has given me the necessary fuel. RESPONDENT: As ‘full of malice and sorrow’, to use your all’s rather religious terminology? ...after all, it was Peter’s ‘advertisement’ for freedom from malice and sorrow that caught my attention. VINEETO: Strange that you should judge the expression that caught your attention a religious terminology. If it is something you want to achieve, why put it down as a mere belief? Don’t you want to be free from malice and sorrow? RESPONDENT: In fact, I would say that my very own ‘seeing the obstacles to paying attention now’ amounts closely to ‘how am I experiencing this moment alive?’ It’s just that, I suppose, I’m not very good at it, and the obstacles are formidable. VINEETO: Yes, the obstacles seemed formidable, especially when I started looking. Taking the obstacles one by one without bothering about the one to come has helped me immensely to keep my feet on the ground and my mind off discouragement. Each moment, now, there is only one obstacle, the one that is bothering me in this moment. Like: ‘Why did this particular remark or behaviour upset me?’ ‘Why am I stressed out when I could do it also relaxedly?’ And after every obstacle removed comes the joy of yet more freedom, deeper understanding, greater confidence and more happiness ... Enough for tonight, time for playing a few solitaire games... Your other letters are still sitting on the computer screen waiting for typing fingers and engaged brain...
VINEETO: I asked myself today, why it is that I am writing to you and how it works with me. I found that talking to you about the different upcoming issues I am making sense of them while we discuss them. Sometimes it takes a few days to sort something out, to see how I understand it and how I want to communicate it. And sometimes I don’t want to say much at all. RESPONDENT: But you are expressing preferences too. You are very concerned about wars. My identity thinks wars are bad also. Any war. <snip> I have it too. Otherwise war would just be what is happening. Furthermore, I don’t need to look at war all the time to get motivated to look at the violence within myself. I’m plenty motivated to see my own brutality and cruelty every day. Because it is seen, something else can occur, sometimes. VINEETO: Yes, I am concerned about wars. The more personal worries disappear out of my life, the more I can see what human beings are doing to each other, every day, in every country, in every household. And everyone is inflicted by the disease called Human Condition, malice and sorrow. To be free from it is to stop being cruel to other people. War is people being cruel to other people, on a big and horrendous scale; it can be eliminated as the Human Condition is eliminated in more and more people. Maybe it takes a few generations, but without instinctual passions and ‘self’ in operation there is no possibility for any war to be fought. That motivates one not just seeing cruelty in oneself but to actually stop being cruel, each time one’s cruelty wants to ‘occur’. RESPONDENT: I disagree with you here, Vineeto, I feel we are discussing definition differences. If you are curious about how I speak to myself about attending to the universe with my sense faculties, and I assume you are, I would tell you that I think of the universe itself, our actual physical universe, all of it, us included and everything in us, as ‘God.’ It is a word I use for the universe, because it makes sense to me. Sunrises and rectal abscesses included. VINEETO: Peter wrote a good definition of ‘sense’. There are two meanings to the word sense. I stick to the first two meanings.
RESPONDENT: And so, since I have determined for myself that the highest value I can see is to pay attention apperceptively, to use Richard’s definition, and what is paid attention to is the universe. I simply put these two most important phenomena in their proper cognitive locations, for me, that being love, and God. VINEETO: Maybe your translation of ‘apperception’ into ‘loving God’ is part of the misunderstanding, because apperception is 180 degrees in the opposite direction of both ‘love’ and ‘god’. Here are some samples of Richard’s Journal what he means by apperception, it is not an easy term to comprehend:
RESPONDENT: I read back over one of the letters I sent to Vineeto, where I made the statement ‘I disagree...’ and I have spent the morning looking at disagreement. VINEETO: Why shouldn’t you disagree? This is, after all, an investigation into what it is to be a human being.
VINEETO: In my investigation I have made a difference between ‘needing approval’ and scrutiny. Since I embarked on my journey to freedom, every single person’s input has been of value to me for scrutinising myself, be it criticism or approval, because I would measure my reaction to their input on what I wanted to achieve ie. be free from any emotional reaction and check if I was not kidding myself. Given that I, like everyone else, have this ‘very very cunning entity’ inside myself, I will use every help possible to dismantle the ‘self’s’ tricks to stay in existence. RESPONDENT: Well said. In fact, everything in every moment becomes one’s teacher, yet our human teachers have a special place I think. Whomever we are with at any time. Each has something to say, something we need to hear. And the rare teachers with whom we may share the action of looking for, listening for, the simple truth, not ‘The Truth,’ are the greatest source of life strength. They are our deepest mirrors. As you have been for me recently, and for which I am grateful. VINEETO: I am not a teacher. I apologize for this misunderstanding. The way I have written may have caused you to see it that way. I am simply a human being, telling you my stories. Forget gratitude. What serendipitous delight that two human beings can have a communication trans the globe about life and death and what it is to be alive. RESPONDENT: As ‘full of malice and sorrow’, to use your all’s rather religious terminology? After all, it was Peter’s ‘advertisement’ for freedom from malice and sorrow that caught my attention. VINEETO: Strange that you should judge the expression that caught your attention a religious terminology. If it is something you want to achieve, why put it down as a mere belief? Don’t you want to be free from malice and sorrow? RESPONDENT: Passionately. The judgement and fear you have correctly identified comes from my sense of self perceiving you and Richard and Peter to be claiming to be special and different and better than I am. Yes, my sense of self wants to be free. And I have seen that I am an actual self that grows towards freedom, without the help of my identity self. My identity self, in fact, is the obstacle. Yet I don’t put it down as a belief, I correctly identify it as a belief. I am not free of malice and sorrow, and when I take action to attempt to bring about freedom from malice and sorrow, then I am either insane and do not know what I am doing, or I believe that my actions will bring about the desired result, one that I ‘fervently wish were true,’ but is not. Clearly a belief. It appears to be the core belief of your religion. <Smiling.> One you are allowing while condemning others. But it is OK to be religious. That is just a statement of having an ego, of being who we are. VINEETO: It may be a belief to you, for me it has been a working theory first and then, with more and more success of eliminating emotions, beliefs and instincts, it has become my experience that it is actually possible to free myself from malice and sorrow. If it intrigues you, you can try it out for yourself. As a mere belief it is of no use whatsoever.
RESPONDENT: There is no misunderstanding here Vineeto, you have been my teacher. VINEETO: When, one and a half years ago I had doubts that the spiritual gurus failed to deliver freedom I met a man who said he was not a guru. As I watched him closely I understood that he in fact had nothing in common with the gurus I had met, loved and believed in. This man, Richard, said that it is possible to live without emotions and furthermore, without beliefs and instincts. As I watched him dealing with daily affairs it seemed actually possible to ‘survive’ without emotions and beliefs, and obviously completely happy and harmless, which I have not seen in anybody before. And so I tried it out for myself. I emulated him, meaning I started to look at the world the way he did, every day a bit more making sense in a radically new way. I was trying to find a way of experiencing life the way he did, without emotions, beliefs and instincts. Other references were my own peak experiences. Of course, I had to sort out a few problems on the way... But now, 18 months later, I am similarly happy and harmless. Richard has described in his journal a lot how he experiences every-day life and, as Peter said, lots of writings of all of us are available...
RESPONDENT: Dear Vineeto, I thank you for your valuable attention. It has meant something to me. In my mind, I think of the conversation between you and I, all that we have discussed, as only one very short encounter, occurring in a few minutes in a single afternoon across a hillside of flowers, and it is raining. We are looking out at the flowers and the rain, and not at each other, as we speak. In spite of its seriousness – we discuss life and death and love and God – it is like all things impermanent, and in the end, there is only the falling rain. I am going to unsubscribe from the list now, as I have read what I needed to read and seen what I needed to see. May visit again sometime. I find no fault with what you are doing and I wish you and Peter and Richard and Irene all the best. May you be happy and free. Vineeto’s & Richard’s Text ©The Actual Freedom Trust: 1997-. All Rights Reserved. Disclaimer |
