Vineeto’s Correspondence on Mailing List C
Correspondent No. 23
RESPONDENT to No 4: Why do you allow yourself to be in any way affected by this person’s poison, this person is quite obviously a mind dweller and mind dwellers love to mind fuck, it is their expertise. Just watch these experts disappear up their own arses if you just give them enough rope. Vineeto can always surrender to ‘that’, but that is really up to existence, she or he is just playing in a play they think they are running. To wake that play up would take a Master and unfortunately for them the Master is dead!
VINEETO: What you call ‘this person’s poison’, ‘mind dwellers’ and so on, is, for instance, the ability to live with a man in peace, harmony and equity for 24 hours a day, every day. It sounds very simple, yet, I have not met anyone or talked to anyone who was able to confirm that they did just that.
This possibility – to be able to live with a man in peace and harmony – was one of the things that attracted me to Actual Freedom, and already within 6 months time it worked. This success alone far exceeded what I had been able to achieve through meditation and therapy, and for me, it speaks for itself. Because to live with one person of the opposite sex in permanent peace, harmony and equity proves that it is possible for everyone – and therefore peace on earth is possible. For me, it is the fire test.
RESPONDENT: Dear Night, If your offering your head and I don’t in any way believe you really are, I will take it for you.
love and piracy
VINEETO: No, I don’t offer my head, I appreciate my brain, my intelligence and my apperceptiveness. I have got rid of my heart, my conditioning and many of my instinctual passions, but it is too late to offer them to you. The garbage man has emptied the bin already. You will need to hunt somewhere else.
RESPONDENT: Dear Night, If your offering your head and I don’t in any way believe you really are, I will take it for you, love and piracy
VINEETO: No, I don’t offer my head, I appreciate my brain, my intelligence and my apperception. I have got rid of my heart, my conditioning and my instincts, but it is too late to offer them to you. The garbage man has emptied the bin already. You will need to hunt somewhere else.
RESPONDENT: When the garbage man came he missed your mind, either that or he replaced it with one you think does not exist! Mind is mind, whether it is a nice mind or a not so nice mind, mind is mind!
VINEETO: Mind is a fascinating word. By using it the way the East has used the word, it means you are to throw out your whole thinking capacity, stop thought in whatever form and then, one day, you will be in mind-less bliss and live on forever in Union with the Universal Mind as an eternal spirit.
And yet, there was something in the understanding that ‘mind’ should be the problem that appealed to me – that’s why I searched for enlightenment. ‘Mind’, our brain is also wired with the social and cultural conditioning, with belief-systems, with fixed thinking patterns, self-centred behaviour and self-centred outlook and this part of the brain (mind) is certainly an essential reason for unhappiness and violence. This part of the mind we identify with as the ‘self’ and it certainly needs to be tackled.
But ‘mind’, our brain, consists of much more – it is also the capacity for common sense, for intelligent reflection, for practical investigation, for in-depth contemplation. But in order to ascertain the clear functioning of the brain you have to remove the psychological and the psychic entity residing within yourself.
The self-centred neurosis of Human Nature is identified in the East as the problem with human beings but the Eastern religions attempt to eradicate only half of the problem. They aim to eradicate the ego, the ‘mind’, who we think we are, while ignoring the soul, who we feel we are. The resultant attack on, or repression of, all thoughts and thinking (and not just the self-centred neurosis) eventuates in the complete denial of intelligent thought such as can be readily seen by the East’s lack of technological progress, appalling poverty, repression of women, theocratic empires, and a disastrous standard of health and environment.
RESPONDENT: Next time you see this garbage man give him a good piece of your mind for frauding you!
VINEETO: The garbage man was only a figure of speech. There is nobody needed, nobody to be relied on and nobody to blame if you fail. You can actually fix yourself up. Just as the body repairs itself, so can the brain be re-wired. As it becomes re-wired – free of the primitive brain and its instinctual fear and aggression – by applying generous doses of bare awareness, common sense and practicality, a vast and actual freedom becomes increasingly apparent. The brain is the tool: I apply liberal doses of common sense to the affected areas and watch the beliefs fade away. Facts replace beliefs. It is so simple – and it works.
RESPONDENT to No 14: Just because these two, Vineeto and Peter, have awakened you to something ‘you’ could not see in the way Osho did his awakening, does not mean they have come any further than anybody else!
These people appear to be total mind fuckers, I may be wrong but I don’t think so. They are just in the process of exchanging one type of mind for another. This new mind is just a little more supple and sly, it appears to be a very nice mind, kind and patient and in love with its own sweetness! The taste of no mind has a different taste, like the ocean it is always salty, remind you of anything?
VINEETO: Maybe this is how it appears to you, that Peter and I are total mind-fuckers, because that’s how you define the opposite of Universal Love. But Universal Love is as much part of the problem as the ego.
To be the universe experiencing itself as a sensate and reflective human being is such a delight and perfection, that it leaves Universal Love far, far behind. The freedom and simplicity of simply doing what is happening, the intimacy of meeting other human beings without the burden of any identity – both ego and soul – is deliciously fulfilling. No love (human or divine) can offer anything of that quality.
So, even if it looks so from your side, it is not mind-fucking. The word ‘mind’ is too hackneyed by the spiritual people and thus too confusing to be of any use. I prefer the words common sense, practical intelligence, clarity and reflection.
RESPONDENT: What you might call the witness or the watcher is just the state of being without thought. It is consciousness, being without thinking!
VINEETO: What you are trying to tell me is just a psittacism of Eastern teaching. That does not make it a fact.
I take it that this sentence is supposed to be an answer to my last letter to you where I wrote:
This ‘ state of being without thought ’ is exactly the problem. The affective identity of this ‘thoughtless being’ is fully alive and kicking, causing even more havoc now that all sensible thought is removed. Nobody wants to acknowledge that it is the ‘feeling’ faculty that is the main problem with the Human Condition, and nobody has even bothered to acknowledge or investigate the instinctual emotions of fear, aggression, nurture and desire at the very core of ‘being’.
You may not yet be aware that my emphasis is upon examining and eliminating the feelings – affective feelings – that cause our thoughts to dominate the brain the way they do. Thought – the only tool that can bring about peace-on-earth in this life – is denigrated so much ... and the feelings that infiltrate thought get always off scot-free. Maybe re-examining the whole concept of ‘mind’ as being the problem would give you some insight into the actual world as opposed to the spiritual and affective world of ‘no-mind’. Just have a good look at the outcome of life in the East!
RESPONDENT: I assure you that I’m not talking about an eastern ideal or philosophy. The experience of the witness I’m describing is my current personal experience, for me it is a fact! If you are experiencing some other personality in this space of being that you call witnessing, as far as I’m concerned you are not just witnessing!
VINEETO: I don’t doubt your personal experience – but, ‘who’ is witnessing? And who told you to develop that witness in the first place? ‘Who’ is so firmly convinced about this personal experience? ‘Who’ is this witnessing entity inside of you? What would happen if this witnessing entity stopped ‘being’ the witness? ‘What’ would be left?
When bare awareness happens, there is no entity that can identify itself as ‘being one with everything’, ‘being love’, ‘being’ anything at all. With bare awareness you are this flesh and blood body only, your eyes seeing, your ears hearing... – no love, no bliss, no oneness with anything.
RESPONDENT: There is no personality in this space what so ever. There is no me in this space! There is just witnessing! Feelings are nothing more than subtle thoughts, and I’m not talking to you about thoughts, I’m talking to you about what I experience when there are no thoughts! There is no female or male in witnessing, just being!
VINEETO: ‘Just being’ is still an identity. It is the most subtle of all identities that the ‘self’ can produce, and yet it is – on honest investigation – distinguishable from this flesh and blood body, it is a ‘something’ or ‘someone’ inside your physical body, it is a passionate imagination.
RESPONDENT: I have taken the time to read some of your long winded postings, and as far as I can see you are talking about spaces of the mind that you are experiencing, whether that be body mind spaces or pure mind spaces, and there is no difference really! Mind is mind! In witnessing, there is no-mind! I am in no way negating the intelligence of the mind, the mind is useful! I am saying there is being beyond it!
VINEETO: You can go beyond the beyond the beyond, and get even further away from the actual world, your identity just further removed from life, from your body, your senses and the perfection of this moment. The actual world is 180 degrees in the opposite direction from where you are searching, not ‘being beyond it’ at all. But the point of what I am saying is that this ‘magical, fairy tale-like world of perfection and purity’ doesn’t need to be believed to exist ... unlike the ‘Greater Reality’ ... which only exists because it is believed by all.
Then you are saying in the second post:
And in your last post you said:
And to No 14:
How do you have salty sex? Does your ‘beingness’ and your ‘nothingness’ get intertwined with your lover’s ‘beingness’ and ‘not-beingness’? Since you are ‘everything in the universe at once’, does your lover never complain that you are ‘somewhere else’? Just to think about it, having sex with someone ‘being everything in the universe at once’, I would really get lost in space... I prefer an actual penis stimulating an actual vagina, thank you.
RESPONDENT: You remind me very much of the born again Christians, they love to flog their ‘Jesus will save you if you welcome him into your heart and ask to be forgiven’. You seem to be saying ‘The mind will save you if you strip it down, welcome it and accept it for what it is!’ The mind is so small compared to everything!
VINEETO: If you read my posts more carefully, you will notice that I make a difference between clarity and the native intelligence of the brain on one side, and the thoughts and emotions in a ‘self’-possessed, instinctually driven brain. ‘Mind’, as eastern philosophy and religion use the term, is only considering the thoughts – not the emotions and instincts, and by proposing ‘No-mind’ they are negating thinking altogether. But once you have cleaned your brain from the alien entity inside of you – ego and soul – there is no problem with thinking at all.
RESPONDENT: Why don’t you try selling it to some other mind dwellers. (Christians could be a challenge). But why don’t you ‘FUCK OFF’ and die somewhere else! Or just shift to a psychology based list where I’m sure you can waffle on for a life time! No 23, the Osho lover
VINEETO: At least you seem to know that I am talking about the death of the ‘self’, and you state that you are not interested. One of your ‘mind spaces’ has come back to life and is kicking again. This is exactly my point, that in just watching and ‘being the witness’ those primary emotions and instinctual passions don’t disappear, they are at the most transcended. You go from one corner of the ‘self’ into another corner of the ‘self’, now called ‘That’. You never leave the ‘self’ behind. You never step out of the Human Condition of sorrow and malice, nurture and desire. Watching and meditation is like rearranging the furniture on the Titanic, fiddling with minor issues while you would better leave the ship of the ‘self’ and of ‘being’ altogether. And, as you can see, those emotions can come back any time.
RESPONDENT: I know this won’t effect you as you have removed yourself from your heart and other unimportant things!
VINEETO: The other way round again: I have removed feelings and emotions from me, not removed myself from my ‘heart’. The Heart or Soul is only a passionate imagined entity, felt as real, but not actual.
‘Go into your Heart’ means focus on the good feelings and negate and sublimate the bad feelings. Once you experience the purity and perfection of being without any self whatsoever in a pure consciousness experience, you strive to get rid of the very act of believing and feeling itself, you aim to get rid of the see-saw of feelings, both good and bad. And it works. By focussing on the felicitous feelings instead of feeling ‘good’ and ‘bad’, one can investigate and eventually eliminate one’s beliefs and feelings and in the end extinguish the very source where emotions arise – our animal instincts.
Only then can you experience the purity and magic of this actual world.
VINEETO: Since you commented about Peter, Vineeto and Richard, I consider it appropriate to comment on your comment.
RESPONDENT to Respondent No 8: The mind will always look for an answer it thinks it can answer. These people: Peter, Vineeto and Richard have opted for a psychological answer to a question their minds cannot answer. That question is ‘Who am I’. This question cannot be answered by the mind, it can only be experienced without the mind! For truly hard and fast head fuckers, this is a really hard path to follow! It involves the surrender of the mind, a product of which is the opening of the heart. I love your questioning of everything, all your belief systems warrant examination.
It is not my belief system that is in place when I say, who you are is beyond the mind; it is my experience!
VINEETO: You are speaking from the spiritual world. The actual world lies 180
degrees in the opposite direction.
The identity will always look for an answer it thinks or feels it can answer; these people – the spiritual seekers – have opted for a spirit-ual and ‘other-worldly’ answer to a question which their practical common sense has not been able to answer. That question is, ‘What am I’? This question cannot be answered by the heart or the soul, it can only be experienced without any psychic entity whatsoever! For truly hard and fast soul-fuckers, this is a really almost impossible path to follow! It involves the death of the identity, which is a product of instincts, beliefs and emotions.
It is not a belief system when I say, ‘who’ you think you are and ‘who’ you feel you are is an identity that can be eliminated – it is my everyday experience!
RESPONDENT: A life unexamined is a life unlived.
VINEETO: Well said. Why stop examination at spiritual so-called ‘Truths’?
VINEETO: You have now sent me a copy of your letter from 2 days ago, this time you left out the following sentence:
RESPONDENT: But why don’t you ‘FUCK OFF’ and die somewhere else!
VINEETO: This was a sincere statement. Why did you leave it out?
You say ‘die somewhere else’. Is it that you don’t want to hear about the subject? An honest statement. Who would want to? No ‘self’ wants to die. Every single ‘self’ of the 5.8 billion people on this planet wants to survive, as somebody, as ‘nobody’, as a heart-felt ‘being’.
‘I’ will do everything to hinder the investigation, to obstruct ‘my’ death. It is a very natural and instinctual fear. So much to loose...
But then, on a closer look I found that what I thought I wanted to keep was not really worth much. A miserable, lonely life, meditating my head off and becoming more and more remote from a world that I had set out to enjoy. When I left Germany for the East to take Sannyas, I had set out to become more happy, more at ease with myself and with the world. But it was only after I questioned the normal world as well as the spiritual world, am I now able to be really at ease. And for that not only my ego but also ‘me’, my soul and my very being have to die.
That’s just how it is. One can say ‘fuck off’ and avoid the facts or face them, finish the search and finally arrive.
As Richard says it to the point:
Vineeto’s & Richard’s Text ©The Actual Freedom Trust: 1997-. All Rights Reserved.