PETER: I thought I would join in on your conversation with Vineeto about instinctual passions. I haven’t written much on the list lately as I have been penning a ‘brief introduction to Actual Freedom’. It’s a picture and word presentation done in PowerPoint and the current idea is to use it as an introduction to a CD version of the Actual Freedom Trust website that we hope to have available early in the new year. Vineeto is currently working on converting it into html for the Web site so she will probably be fully involved for a few weeks and not writing for a while.

So, on to the instinctual passions of fear, aggression, nurture and desire –

VINEETO: It is not a matter of having an ‘intimate’ relationship with one’s instincts, but to acknowledge, feel and experience that ‘I’ am my instinctual passions, nothing else. ‘I’ am rotten to the very core.

RESPONDENT: Over the last few years I have become an anonymous nobody and what you have said here about seeing the instinctual passions as ‘me’, all of ‘me’ does shine some light on the matter. The part about acknowledging, feeling and experiencing that ‘I’ am my instinctual passions, nothing else and that I am rotten to the very core is where I feel that I am at right now. Intellectually I see that this is so but I am just not feeling and experiencing it right now.

PETER: And from a previous post –

RESPONDENT: Although I have been working on beliefs and emotions for a long time this area of instincts is new to me so I don’t know exactly where I’m at with it.

PETER: From the ‘introduction’ I have been working on I did a brief summary of the animal instinctual passions as evidenced in human beings. I am sure you can relate to many of these facets of the instincts ‘in action’ in your own life. The Human Condition of malice and sorrow that is obvious in human beings collectively – 160,000,0000 killed in wars this century and an estimated 40,000,000 suicides worldwide this century – is a universal condition that no individual human being escapes. We are all born with a genetically-encoded set of instinctual passions that are fully developed by the age of about 2 years when the first signs of fear, aggression, nurture and desire become obvious in every infants behaviour. What is so appallingly evident global-wide is potentially in each of us, should we submit to, or be overwhelmed by, the instinctual animal passions. From the ‘introduction to Actual Freedom’ –

Fear hobbles us with a desperate need to belong to a group, to cling to the past, to hang on to whatever we hold ‘dear’ to ourselves, to resist change, to fear death and consequently to desperately seek immortality. Fear drives us to seek power over others or to support the powerful in return for their protection.

Aggression causes us to fight for our territory, our possessions, our ‘rights’, our family and our treasured beliefs – seeking power over others. At core, we love to fight or see others fighting..

Nurture causes us to care, comfort and protect but also leads to dependency, empathy, pity, blind sacrifice for others and needless heroism. Women are programmed to reproduce the species and men are programmed to provide for, and protect, the offspring – a blind and relentless instinctual drive.

Desire relentlessly drives us to needless sexual reproduction and sexual hunting, senseless avarice, corruption and insatiable greed for possessions and power.

There has been an ongoing denial, repression and cover-up about the role of the animal instinctual passions that has been actively instilled in each human being as an integral part of our social conditioning. This conditioning takes the form of spiritual beliefs, morals, ethics and psittacisms that are designed to make us ‘good’ citizens, do the ‘right’ thing and keep our instinctual passions ‘under control’. Unless this social identity is firmly tackled and eliminated it is impossible to even begin feeling and experiencing the instinctual passions in operation, let alone begin the investigation necessary to evince their extinction in oneself.

Many, many people who see ‘rotten’ in the world, turn to a personal search for freedom, peace and happiness and turn to the spiritual path. Thus they shackle themselves with spiritual metaphysical beliefs – the current fashion being Eastern religious belief. They then adopt the Eastern version of what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong and off they go into ancient belief, superstition, imagination and fantasy.

‘Eastern spiritual belief has it that human existence on earth is a ‘necessary suffering’ and that ultimate peace and fulfillment lies ‘elsewhere’, after death. This ‘necessary suffering’ is in fact the Human Condition of malice and sorrow and includes war, murder, rape, torture, domestic violence, corruption, despair and suicide. With this belief that all this suffering is necessary to human existence firmly habituated on the planet it is no wonder that human suffering and resentment continue to flourish.’ Introduction to Actual Freedom, The Human Condition

Of course, the Eastern religions also believe that one is born ‘innocent’ and only corrupted by ‘evil’ thoughts and that ‘right’ thinking will lead to a state of Divine purity! Unless one back-tracks out of all this nonsense, one has no chance of undertaking the common sense investigation necessary to re-wire one’s brain – to reprogram what society and blind nature has programmed your brain to think and feel to be real, true or the Truth.

Maybe a bit I wrote at the time I was undertaking this very process of reprogramming will be useful to the discussion. Actual Freedom is not a philosophy or a theory – it offers a practical, down-to-earth method that is life changing and ‘self’-eliminating.

[Peter]: ... ‘What I understood of the method, briefly, was to make being happy your immediate goal, enjoying and appreciating this moment of being alive as much and as often as possible – after all, this is your only moment of being alive that you are able to actually experience. Being happy yesterday is useless and imagining or hoping for it in the future is avoiding the issue. ‘How am I experiencing this moment of being alive?’ was the question to be continuously asked until it becomes a non-verbal attitude or a wordless approach to life with the aim to minimize both the ‘bad’ and the ‘good’ feelings and maximize the happy and harmless feelings. If you are not happy now, then you have something to look at. Richard suggests getting back to feeling good before investigating the source of the unhappiness as it makes the investigation so much easier, of course. What particular belief, conditioning or instinctual passion is causing your unhappiness in this moment? Once having discovered the cause or the issue behind the diminishing of happiness, one can root around layer by layer until it is exposed to the bright light of awareness and the silliness of it all is clearly understood.

For sorting out one’s beliefs and social conditioning there is a useful test that can be applied: ‘Is it silly or sensible?’ Does my conviction make sense? Is it supported by facts, or is it a belief; does it work? Whatever is preventing my happiness now deserves my total attention and thorough investigation – simply believing the opinions, beliefs and values of other similarly inflicted people is to be gullible in the extreme. It is my life I am living and it is happening now. I then became vitally interested in my happiness for the first time. And I was looking to get to the root of it, to be free of whatever was causing my unhappiness, such that it would never come back. Finished, gone. And nobody else does it for me – I do it for myself!

What Richard was saying was daunting, bewildering, a complete reversal of all I had understood up until then! But a few things appealed: he was saying that if you make your goal in life to be happy and harmless then you will succeed given sufficient intent. Then it is possible for a man and woman to live together in peace and harmony, and then peace on the planet will be possible. Well, since the spiritual path had sort of petered out and was leading in ever-confusing circles, I thought what the hell! The alternative was to go back to ‘comfortable and numb’ again (which was actually uncomfortable and tortured underneath), so I decided to plough on.

Being a practical man I went out and found a woman to try out the living-together theory. Simultaneously I proceeded to investigate with Richard all things religious and spiritual. What became apparent was that he was no spiritual Master whose ‘Energy’ created blissful feelings. There were no discourses, no spiritual practices, no meditation – just a frank and open discussion ranging over all facets of the Human Condition. What these investigations started to reveal was confrontational to the very core of ‘who’ I thought I was, because I was one of those human beings suffering from the Human Condition. Every time we would talk about something that I took as ‘right’ or ‘true’ or ‘real’, I was challenged to look at it afresh. Was this just something I had heard or read and assumed to be a truth – or was it that I simply believed, assumed or wished it to be true? Was it silly or sensible? What were the facts of the situation? What was my actual experience about this?

My mind would sometimes go into a sort of gridlock, unable and unwilling to withstand what it took as an assault. Rightly so, because the very ‘I’ who I thought I was, was being found out as made up of nothing more than the beliefs of others, society’s conditioning and a set of primitive animal instinctual passions! It was both exciting and terrifying at the same time as I found myself questioning all that I held to be true. I was conducting an investigation into my very own psyche – how extraordinary! Often it all felt too much as yet another wave of fear swept over me, but three things kept me going.

One was the memory of the purity and perfection of the peak experience I had had some ten years previously – and I was beginning to have similar experiences again, little reminders of my goal. The second was my intent. I wanted to live as I had experienced in a pure consciousness experience. I had arranged my life in such a way that I could devote almost the whole of my time to this investigation, whether being with Richard and Devika, Vineeto, or taking the time to contemplate by myself. I was also reading prolifically to investigate what was the current wisdom on a wide range of the Human Condition. I soon found myself obsessed, so fascinating was it to discover, for myself, exactly what it is to be a human being. Therapy had been like fiddling with the parts, rearranging the furniture to suit the particular beliefs of the therapist. Here I was taking the whole package apart – stripping away and delving deeper than I ever had before. It occurred to me that no wonder nearly everyone else who had come across Richard had run for the hills!

The third thing that kept me going was confidence. What gave me the confidence to continue was my experience that this method actually worked. Every time I looked into a belief and saw that it was only a belief, not a fact, it would soon be demonstrated in my life that I was free of it. I was indeed becoming free, actually, bit by bit – my life was indeed ‘getting better all the time’ (as the Beatles sang). This progress made the spiritual years seem like kindergarten. My relationship with Vineeto had rapidly gone past the point of previous failures and was sailing into untroubled waters. Despite the occasional fear attacks, I was experiencing life as happier, less neurotic, less emotional and much stiller. It actually worked as it went – and, magically, the next thing to look at popped up at the right time. Always the aim is to be happy now, not in some future time. Of course as this succeeded, I simply raised the stakes – what about experiencing life as perfect for twenty-four hours a day, every day? Thrilling stuff indeed!’ Peter’s Journal, ‘God’

It is such an amazing process to re-program one’s own brain – to actively demolish ‘who’ you think and feel you are.

Well, that’s it from me – No 5 will be complaining about the length of my posts again.

9.12.2001

RESPONDENT: Maybe I have it wrong but it looks to me like sorrow comes from fear. For example, if there is a fear of not surviving then there will be sorrow. In other words, isn’t fear underlying the sorrow?

PETER: The predominant instinctual passions are those of fear, aggression, nurture and desire. Although these passions are aspects of a single instinctual genetic program designed solely to ensure the survival of the species they are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly.

This is not good news for the spiritually indoctrinated, for ancient wisdom has it that the savage passions of fear and aggression are the work of evil spirits whilst the tender passions of nurture and desire are the work of some God, by whatever name. In order to perpetuate this fairy tale, and defend their own cherished spiritual identities, spiritualists must deny the very existence of the four fundamental instinctual passions ... lest their whole world of beliefs come crashing down.

Speaking personally, I started to become suss of the benefits of spiritual practice and the motivations underlying spiritual beliefs after repeatedly observing the fact that the acclaimed Godmen were driven by desire for fame, were often angry and arrogant, cared only for themselves and demanded humility and surrender of their followers. Not only did I see the instinctual passions still present in the revered Gurus but I also acknowledged that, for all my sanctimonious feelings, I was also still capable of being angry, feeling resentful or envious, forlorn or melancholic. And as for fear, I began to see that the way the Gurus overcame the feeling of fear was to trip off into a spiritual la-la land – an inner fantasy world where they imagined themselves to be immortal Beings and therefore transcendent of the instinctual fear of survival.

I fully acknowledge the difficulty of breaking out of the fixed mindset of spiritual conditioning that locks one into seeing everything in terms of good or evil spirits, right or wrong thinking, desirable or undesirable feelings, fearful and mortal or fearless and immortal ... but what to do? Once I understood that the whole concept of spirituality was simply a belief, and a very, very archaic one at that, I was able to stop practicing selective awareness – a polite phrase for blatant denial and sheer hypocrisy – and get on with the business of being attentive to my own feelings of malice and sorrow.

And as I wrote to Gary, once you are attentive to these feelings you immediately have the opportunity to conduct your own hands-on, do-it-yourself investigation of what makes ‘you’ tick.

10.12.2001

RESPONDENT: Maybe I have it wrong but it looks to me like sorrow comes from fear. For example, if there is a fear of not surviving then there will be sorrow. In other words, isn’t fear underlying the sorrow?

PETER: The predominant instinctual passions are those of fear, aggression, nurture and desire. Although these passions are aspects of a single instinctual genetic program designed solely to ensure the survival of the species they are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly.

RESPONDENT: Yes, I agree with this. With the predominant instinctual passions being fear, aggression, nurture and desire then isn’t malice and sorrow derived from these passions with fear being the most predominant? My specific question is: Isn’t the instinct of fear underlying (the cause of) malice and sorrow?

PETER: No. Although fear, aggression, nurture and desire are aspects of a single instinctual genetic program designed solely to ensure the survival of the species they are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly. As an example, if you are driving a car and become angry that the car in front of you is travelling very slowly, your anger has nothing to do with fear. If you are sitting in a café and hear some music that makes you feel sad, your sorrow has nothing to do with fear. I won’t go on as your own investigations can reveal that fear, aggression, nurture and desire are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly. A few examples of this –

Fear hobbles us with a desperate need to belong to a group, to cling to the past, to hang on to whatever we hold ‘dear’ to ourselves, to resist change, to fear death and consequently to desperately seek immortality. Fear drives us to seek power over others or to support the powerful in return for their protection.

Aggression causes us to fight for our territory, our possessions, our ‘rights’, our family and our treasured beliefs – seeking power over others. At core, we love to fight or see others fighting..

Nurture causes us to care, comfort and protect but also leads to dependency, empathy, pity, blind sacrifice for others and needless heroism. Women are programmed to reproduce the species and men are programmed to provide for, and protect, the offspring – a blind and relentless instinctual drive.

Desire relentlessly drives us to needless sexual reproduction and sexual hunting, senseless avarice, corruption and insatiable greed for possessions and power. Introduction to Actual Freedom, Human Condition

To remain fixated upon fear as being primary and predominant, even if that is how you experience it now, is to miss out on the opportunity of being aware of, and thus being able to investigate the full range of instinctual passions that are the underlying cause of human malice and sorrow. You may also find that the fascinating business of investigating the full range of instinctual passions in action will divert you from your fixation with the feeling of fear and enable you to turn the fear into the thrill of discovering what you are.

Having said all that, I can also relate to your feelings of fear as they would often rack me when I was first confronted by actualism and the enormity of setting off on a path that could only lead to ‘my’ demise. I was however thoroughly fed up with living a second-rate life and I was totally disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the spiritual world so I figured I had nothing left to lose anyway.

What I did was set myself some realistic targets – to live with at least one other person in utter peace and harmony and to eliminate both malice and sorrow from my life. Once I had set myself these goals, given myself something practical to do about my lot in life as it were, the feelings of fear became secondary to the adventure of being an actualist and to the satisfaction of the success that ensues.

15.12.2001

RESPONDENT: Maybe I have it wrong but it looks to me like sorrow comes from fear. For example, if there is a fear of not surviving then there will be sorrow. In other words, isn’t fear underlying the sorrow?

PETER: The predominant instinctual passions are those of fear, aggression, nurture and desire. Although these passions are aspects of a single instinctual genetic program designed solely to ensure the survival of the species they are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly.

RESPONDENT: Yes, I agree with this. With the predominant instinctual passions being fear, aggression, nurture and desire then isn’t malice and sorrow derived from these passions with fear being the most predominant? My specific question is: Isn’t the instinct of fear underlying (the cause of) malice and sorrow?

PETER: No. Although fear, aggression, nurture and desire are aspects of a single instinctual genetic program designed solely to ensure the survival of the species they are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly. As an example, if you are driving a car and become angry that the car in front of you is travelling very slowly, your anger has nothing to do with fear. If you are sitting in a café and hear some music that makes you feel sad, your sorrow has nothing to do with fear. I won’t go on as your own investigations can reveal that fear, aggression, nurture and desire are distinct and separate passions that can be discerned and experienced quite separately and distinctly. As a few examples of this – Fear hobbles us with a desperate need to belong to a group, to cling to the past, to hang on to whatever we hold ‘dear’ to ourselves, to resist change, to fear death and consequently to desperately seek immortality. <snip>

To remain fixated upon fear as being primary and predominant, even if that is how you experience it now, is to miss out on the opportunity of being aware of, and thus being able to investigate the full range of instinctual passions that are the underlying cause of human malice and sorrow. You may also find that the fascinating business of investigating the full range of instinctual passions in action will divert you from your fixation with the feeling of fear and enable you to turn the fear into the thrill of discovering what you are.

Having said all that, I can also relate to your feelings of fear as they would often rack me when I was first confronted by actualism and the enormity of setting off on a path that could only lead to ‘my’ demise. I was however thoroughly fed up with living a second-rate life and I was totally disillusioned with the hypocrisy of the spiritual world so I figured I had nothing left to lose anyway.

What I did was set myself some realistic targets – to live with at least one other person in utter peace and harmony and to eliminate both malice and sorrow from my life. Once I had set myself these goals, given myself something practical to do about my lot in life as it were, the feelings of fear became secondary to the adventure of being an actualist and to the satisfaction of the success that ensues.

RESPONDENT: I don’t have any problem with experiencing the instincts as distinct and separate passions. You said that it is ‘the full range of instinctual passions that are the cause of malice and sorrow’ and I agree with that. It is just that it looks to me like fear is still predominant and underlying the other instinctual passions. It could be as you say that I am fixated on fear. You also said that ‘if you are driving a car and become angry that the car in front of you is travelling very slowly, your anger has nothing to do with fear.’ I can see many ways that my anger would have something to do with fear. For example: If I am afraid of being late to a very important meeting or appointment (pick a reason ) then I would be angry at the driver in front of me for causing me to be late. You then said: ‘If you are sitting in a cafe and hear some music that makes you feel sad, your sorrow has nothing to do with fear.’ I can also think of reasons that my sorrow would have something to do with fear. For example: I may be afraid of being alone and I feel sorrow because the music reminds me of a lover who has left me.

PETER: The discussion regarding this topic has since moved on to the point where you have posted a quote from the Actual Freedom Trust library –

Peter: ‘The core instinctually based emotions of human beings are fear, aggression, nurture and desire. Of these, fear is the most potent and obvious emotion that lies at the root of the Human Condition.’ The Actual Freedom Trust Library, Fear

and from your correspondence with Richard on another mailing list –

Richard: ‘Yes, at root fear is the most basic of all the instinctual survival passions ... hence fear rules the world of sentient beings.’ Richard, List B , No 39a, 15.12.2001

Okay, touché. I was trying to steer the conversation into a broader awareness and understanding of the total package of the instinctual passions and ended up bending over so far in the other direction that I ended up shooting myself in the foot. Ah, well.

Given that you have said –

[Respondent]: ‘The only reason I came here was that your original post brought up a question about the instincts that I wanted to inquire about. I got your view on it but I haven’t yet answered the question to my satisfaction. I will just move on and remain with the question as I am sure the others here only want to teach and indoctrinate me also into the ‘wide and wondrous path to actual freedom.’ No 16 to Gary 13.12.2001

there seems to be no point in continuing our conversation because I will only continue trying to seduce you into doing something about eliminating fear from your life, or as you put it – ‘teach and indoctrinate me <> into the ‘wide and wondrous path to actual freedom.’

The writings of actualists will no doubt be picked over, scrutinized and taken to pieces line by line over time, as they should be. The writings will be the fuel for many an academic debate as well as providing a rich source of plagiarism for spiritualists. However, those with a genuine interest in peace on earth will be sufficiently motivated by the radical nature of what is on offer and will want to find out if what is being said is fact or theory by the only way practically possible – giving it a go and road testing the method for themselves.

31.12.2001

PETER: Just a comment on something you wrote to Vineeto –

[Respondent]: At least Peter admits when he is wrong which gives him at least some credibility. You can now have the last say as I am not interested in any further discussion with you. As far as going back to the ‘outer layers’, yes I do that. I wish you would give up on analysing me as you have no idea where I am at. Maybe you can find someone who is spiritual and is a beginner to teach and you can peddle your lies to them. No 16 to Vineeto 29.12.2001

It seems as though you are, yet again, missing the real significance of the role that instinctual fear plays within the human condition. You have quoted from something I wrote –

Peter: The core instinctual based emotions of human beings are fear, aggression, nurture and desire. Of these, fear is the most potent and obvious emotion that lies at the root of the Human Condition.’ The Actual Freedom Trust Library, Fear

and have also quoted from something Richard wrote to you on another mailing list –

Respondent to Richard: Would you say that fear is predominant or underlying the other instincts? That is how I see it but I could be wrong.

Richard: ‘Yes, at root fear is the most basic of all the instinctual survival passions ... hence fear rules the world of sentient beings.’ Richard, List B , No 39a, 15.12.2001

What is common to both these statements is the word ‘root’ which can be taken to mean at the bottom of or underlying – the root of plant is a useful working analogy. Given that the passion of fear is ‘at root’ it is therefore at the bottom of or underlying something else that is more apparent and obvious. What is apparent and obvious to all at the surface is what is commonly known as the human condition and the predominant features of the human condition are malice and sorrow.

I made this point quite clearly in the Introduction –

Peter: The most striking, persistent and enduring attributes of the Human Condition are malice and sorrow – both at a personal level and a global level.

Malice and sorrow in humans are the direct result of the animal instinctual passions of fear, aggression, nurture and desire ‘in action’.

The range of the Human Condition of malice and sorrow is marked by resentment, frustration, anger, violence and warfare at one end and melancholy, sadness, depression, despair and suicide at the other. Introduction to Actual Freedom

What should be unambiguous from this is that while fear is the basic, underlying, root passion – to use the full range of descriptive words used in the conversation thus far – it is not the predominant, as in up front, most obvious, most noticeable nor most potent. As such the wording I used when I wrote ‘fear is the most potent and obvious emotion that lies at the root of the Human Condition’ could be misleading and, as such, I will alter it.

When I wrote what I did about fear, I assumed that anyone reading would be interested in the altruistic pursuit of eliminating malice and sorrow from their everyday lives rather than the selfish pursuit of fearlessness. I had no idea at the time the extent to which spiritualists were prepared to deny their own feelings of malice and sorrow in order to hang on to their feelings of superiority and righteousness. But then again, there is no substitute for being outside the spiritual world – as in a pure consciousness experience – to really see the game plan.

I do like it when any anomalies and inaccuracies in my writing come to the surface on this list. I shall amend what I wrote in order to make the distinction more clear. One of the purposes of this mailing list is as a forum to discuss the human condition that we all find ourselves unwittingly trapped in. What we seek to do is discern what are the facts as opposed to what is merely belief, myth, opinion, psittacism, legend and fairy tale.

As such these discussions and investigations on this list are not at all about who is right and who is wrong because we then only fall into the trap that besets all human interactions – what passes for discussion and communication between humans is but a battle of stubborn wills, differing opinions, varying morals, opposing values, contrary attitudes, begrudging compromises, temporary truces, and so on. However for those interested in setting aside their ‘outer layers’ of social conditioning there is a literal goldmine of facts available in the bowels of the Actual Freedom Trust website.

4.1.2002

PETER: ... As such these discussions and investigations on this list are not at all about who is right and who is wrong because we then only fall into the trap that besets all human interactions – what passes for discussion and communication between humans is but a battle of stubborn wills, differing opinions, varying morals, opposing values and contrary attitudes relieved only by rough and temporary ceasefires, sullen surrenders, begrudging compromises, pathetic pacts, makeshift alliances and so on. However, for those interested in setting aside their ‘outer layers’ of social conditioning, there is a literal goldmine of facts about the human condition available in the bowels of the Actual Freedom Trust website.

RESPONDENT: Yes, I understand what you are saying about malice and sorrow. I was delving deeper into it as in your quote above:

[Peter]: Malice and sorrow in humans are the direct result of the animal instinctual passions of fear, aggression, nurture and desire ‘in action’. [endquote].

PETER: And yet what I was saying was –

[Peter]: What should be unambiguous from this is that while fear is the basic, underlying, root passion – to use the full range of descriptive words used in the conversation thus far – it is not the predominant, as in up front, most obvious, most noticeable nor most potent.

Following your reply, I am tempted to move stubbornness up the list of the most predominant passions to sit just marginally below malice and its interlinked companion, sorrow.

RESPONDENT: I will just continue on my own as I can’t seem to get past first base with anyone here. Thanks anyway for the reply.

PETER: A pleasure. Maybe it will be of use to someone else, sometime else. Even if not, I’ve had fun thinking and writing about the subject.

RESPONDENT: Also, I see that you are still referring to me as a spiritualist, which sounds a little odd coming from a religious devotee such as yourself. You can have the last say if you want as I don’t wish to continue this into the new year.

PETER: Might I remind you that it was you who asked a question of Richard on a spiritual mailing list and then posted his answer to this list. If you are not a spiritualist, why do you correspond on a spiritual mailing list and why do you talk spiritual talk on that list?

When I corresponded on several spiritual mailing lists and pointed out the flaws and failures of spiritualism, a common response was that many correspondents would then proceed to deny they were spiritualists – a blatant ‘not me, it must be someone else’ denial. Another common reaction was to label me as being a religious devotee – a taunt favoured by followers of Eastern religion in an attempt to deny the religiosity of their own beliefs.

If you don’t want to be a spiritualist, then don’t be a spiritualist – living life devoid of beliefs is a such a palpable tangible freedom for one ends up freed from the constant need to either deny, hide and conceal one’s beliefs – or to defend, champion or fight for one’s beliefs.

11.1.2002

PETER: You wrote at the end of a series of posts on the subject of the connection between sorrow and fear –

RESPONDENT: I will just continue on my own as I can’t seem to get past first base with anyone here. Thanks anyway for the reply.

PETER: A pleasure. Maybe it will be of use to someone else, sometime else. Even if not, I’ve had fun thinking and writing about the subject.

RESPONDENT: Also, I see that you are still referring to me as a spiritualist, which sounds a little odd coming from a religious devotee such as yourself. You can have the last say if you want as I don’t wish to continue this into the new year.

PETER: Might I remind you that it was you who asked a question of Richard on a spiritual mailing list and then posted his answer to this list. If you are not a spiritualist, why do you correspond on a spiritual mailing list, and why do you talk spiritual talk on that list?

When I corresponded on several spiritual mailing lists and pointed out the flaws and failures of spiritualism, a common response was that many correspondents would then proceed to deny they were spiritualists – a blatant ‘not me, it must be someone else’ denial. Another common reaction was to label me as being a religious devotee – a taunt favoured by followers of Eastern religion in an attempt to deny the religiosity of their own beliefs.

If you don’t want to be a spiritualist, then don’t be a spiritualist – living life devoid of beliefs is a such a palpable tangible freedom, for one ends up freed from the constant need to either deny, hide and conceal one’s beliefs – or to defend, champion or fight for one’s beliefs.

RESPONDENT: I guess that means that Richard is spiritual too because he was on a spiritual mailing list. This is like having the king of denial tell me that I am in denial.

PETER: It is a moot point to describe someone as spiritual who has lived the pinnacle of spiritual achievement – Enlightenment – for some 11 years and who, when the delusion collapsed, described the experience of Enlightenment as institutionalized insanity. You would be well acquainted with the oft fierce opposition meted out to Richard’s writings on the list in question such that his voluminous correspondence could well be entitled ‘Objections to being happy and harmless’.

RESPONDENT: Thanks for reminding me why I have read very little of what you have written. I will no longer attempt to talk to either you or Vineeto as I clearly see the futility of that. I came here to attempt a conversation with Gary and have had to wade through the Peter and Vineeto show. I will not do that again. If it is not all right to come here without talking to you or Vineeto let me know and I will not come back at all.

PETER: Again I would remind you that it was you who wrote asking either Gary or I to respond to a question you raised and I responded to your request. Given that this is an un-moderated and uncensored mailing list – Vineeto simply joined in the conversation and you pursued the topic with her. This list is in fact ‘run’ by a computer program, which automatically receives and distributes all posts without exception, any moderation or censorship will have to be your responsibility. I have received similar demands before and suggested that the correspondent put a block on my incoming mail if they do not want to read anything I write to the list or do not want to receive a reply to anything they write to me.

RESPONDENT: P.S: Here is something I posted to the spiritual list yesterday:

[Respondent]: I can relate to the part about not bullying someone to see things my way. I just ended a discussion on another list in which I was bullied to see things their way. Even if I agreed with them I was still made wrong and then they lecture me on right and wrong. Only thing I know to do is not go to another list or talk to someone else that bullies me. What I was saying was what they had already said and I was still made wrong. They didn't even listen to what I said. All they know is to teach that their way is the only way that is right and everyone else is wrong. When I go to another list or talk to someone that only wants to teach, I know I am in the wrong place. What I like about this list is that it is un-moderated and there are no authoritative religious goons running the show. [endquote].

This is my answer to why I am still on a spiritual mailing list. I am no longer spiritual but at least there are no dictators running it.

PETER: I take it from your statement ‘When I go to another list or talk to someone that only wants to teach, I know I am in the wrong place’ that you have an aversion to being taught anything on this list, i.e. that there might just be something new to learn on this list. Personally I find this attitude somewhat bewildering because when I came across Richard and his discovery, I was – after some understandable initial hesitation – only too willing to learn something new from him.

Should you change your mind at any time, I would be only too happy to discuss the issue of fear with you, distinct from the topic of sorrow. I do have some practical experience that I am always willing to share with anyone who is interested as to how to eliminate the feeling of fear from your life such that you can be become virtually happy and harmless.

16.2.2005

RESPONDENT No 16: The only ones who I have ‘felt’ intimidated by here are P and V. More so by V because I actually spent a lot of time trying to have a discussion with her. I realize that this was because of my own stupidity because no one forced me to continue trying to discuss it with her. Anyway, that was the reason I was so turned off to actualism when I first came here. I felt that she was trying to shove it down my throat and asserting her authority to do it. P and V are the reasons I never committed to actualism and probably the reason I never will. The only thing I am committed to at this point is becoming free of the human condition. Intimidation 1.2.2005

RESPONDENT No 60: I haven’t heard it stated so boldly before, but I’ll second that. They have been the strongest deterrent to me too. Intimidation 1.2.2005

RESPONDENT No 59: I’ll third that. Intimidation 1.2.2005

PETER: I am always somewhat bemused when correspondents on this mailing list claim that I am preventing them from being happy and harmless.

Such declarations always set me wondering who or what else is preventing them from being happy and harmless? Is it really only me or do they get annoyed by other people as well – doesn’t their boss at work occasionally say something that causes them to be unhappy, doesn’t their partner, siblings or parents sometimes say or do something that causes them to feel irritated? Do they not on occasions feel frustrated when their computer breaks down … or when the weather is not as they would want it … or when the traffic slows to a crawl? Do they not feel morose when listening to sad songs or when watching a movie about the trials and tribulations of human relationships? Or am I to presume that if Vineeto and I were run over by the proverbial bus tomorrow then all of a sudden these correspondents would be magically both happy and harmless?

Besides which, is it not the case that the website is set up such that Richard’s writings are separated from those of Vineeto and myself and that if they want to follow Richard’s lead and set their sights on becoming happy and harmless then they are not only utterly free to do so but that they also have available a complete set of instructions as to how he went about it?

I can only suggest that such protestations be seen for what they are – yet another spurious objection to being happy and harmless.

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