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(List D refers to Richard’s List D
Vineeto’s Selected Correspondence Innocence
VINEETO: … Wouldn’t be the fact and experience that actuality is irresistible provide enough pull to proceed without having to ‘kick’ yourself into action with dire projections? [Emphasis added by Kuba]. KUBA: Yes it should shouldn’t it and yet there is clearly something which pulls ‘me’ back and that ‘I’ then seek to overcome with the dramatisations. It seems this “I am not good enough” needs to be rooted out fully. There is something atavistic to it, it reminds me of a post I wrote a few years ago when first getting some success with applying the actualism method. (…) I can see now that this is the atavistic basis of this “I am not good enough”, this is not just ‘my’ personal feeling but rather where ‘humanity’ has been stuck for thousands of years. It segues into what you wrote about actual freedom not being possible in a finite and expanding universe. It was enlightenment which set the parameters of what is possible for a human being, it provided the ‘wisdom’ that human kind has been living to. One of the primary tenets of this ‘wisdom’ is that perfection is never to be lived by any human being, that we are all sinners until we depart for an after life – only there perfection can be allowed. In a way I have been living to a commandment which was given by those god men – do not dare to live perfection in this life time as this flesh and blood body. Not only is it not possible (apparently) but it is taboo, it is not allowed. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, Yes, you found it – it is the atavistic taboo to leave humanity, its ‘wisdom’ and its Ultimate Authority, or else you’ll be punished if you don’t obey its (holy) tenets, you’ll be marked as a traitor. You might like this quote – it dramatically describes Richard’s part of the journey that he had embarked upon at this point –
KUBA: It is such a perverse feeling/belief and yet it is active in ‘me’ because why wouldn’t ‘I’ just walk through that door and leave ‘myself’ behind. It seems as though it would be too easy?! Like ‘I’ am addicted to forever journeying as a sinner. Like ‘I’ am addicted to ‘my’ problems and ‘my’ solutions. But underneath all this is the commandment that I am never to live in perfection, that life is not meant to be easy. Experiencing that “utter fullness” the other day it was clear that it is here for everybody and that it provides an utter safety, the magnitude of which has to be lived to be known. And yet it was experienced that it would be “too easy” if it was all over just like that. That for some obscure reason ‘I’ should suffer some more. The best I can describe this in ‘myself’ right now is the belief that life is not meant to be easy, that it is wrong to live without suffering, that life should be an ongoing struggle of the good over the bad. I am basically describing that ancient ‘wisdom’ handed out by the god men. But with the discovery of an actual freedom this wisdom was cut at the very root, it’s very founding principles were shown to be incorrect and so the rest of the worldview topples down. VINEETO: That is a great insight and, with sincerity, action will follow. Yesterday you wrote about having discovered the “presence”, the “imprint”
– “‘I’ am this imprint that feelings swirl around to form, a ‘structure’ that has absolutely no
substance, an intuited ‘presence’”.
VINEETO: The question is how long will it take until there are enough people virtually free and actually free to influence and replace the ancient wisdom still being taught in homes, schools, universities and religious/ spiritual institutions with common sense, facts and actuality, as well as equity and parity amongst human beings. [Emphasis added by Kuba]. KUBA: This same thing is happening inside of ‘me’ right now. The seeing which can undo ‘me’ (as well as that entire ancient worldview) is already in place. And it is in place in ‘me’ specifically and in the ‘psychic web’ in general. So indeed there is no need for dire projections, rather it is an incredible time to be alive. As you wrote now it is the case of each human being – “using their initiative and native intelligence to be perfection personified, which is both one’s birthright and one’s destiny.” Yesterday it clicked what you have been encouraging us to do, which is to find something that ‘I’ deeply and passionately care about. I can see that this is something that needs to feel true to the core of ‘my’ being, something that ‘I’ have wanted so much all of ‘my’ life. I understand this is meant as an open question and for the answer to come experientially but I just wanted to write about the general flavour of this so far. What I could see yesterday is that all ‘my’ life ‘I’ was resentful and angry at the world. I was always very perceptive of others, my mum always mentions a situation when as a young child I called out my grandmother for only pretending to be happy with grandad and actually that she did not care for him at all, and what’s better is I delivered it in a poem form. But I was always resentful at the hypocrisy, the lack of equity, the ignorant irresponsibility and the harm that was being done by all, and yet ultimately ‘I’ could do not better. ‘I’ wanted so bad to ‘be’ the answer to all that and yet ‘my’ very being has always prevented this. My whole life there was this sense that something was off and yet I couldn’t put my finger on it, until I had that PCE at 18. In short what ‘I’ deeply and passionately care about is to be innocence personified. To live that which the PCE demonstrated and in doing so to offer (and demonstrate) a solid alternative to the “hypocrisy, the lack of equity, the ignorant irresponsibility and the harm that was being done by all”. This innocence is what I (and I am sure others on this forum) detect from you and if I had not experienced it first hand I would probably have believed it to be impossible. VINEETO: Remember, on February 27 you wrote – “So the
question is what will seduce ‘me’ to want to gift this gift, it will have to be big!” It is indeed “big” – “to offer (and demonstrate) a solid alternative to the “hypocrisy, the lack of equity, the ignorant irresponsibility and the harm that was being done by all”, “to be innocence personified”. It is wonderful beyond words that this is what you passionately want to be … Richard called it service.
KUBA: So this is the flavour of ‘my’ deepest desire – to be that. I thought before that it is pointless to proceed in this direction precisely because ‘I’ can never ‘be’ innocent. But this is exactly the point isn’t it? VINEETO: Ah, this is wonderful. This is what your open question has revealed to you. For this ‘you’ are willing to give 100% of your ‘self’ in order to make this deepest wish an actuality, to be innocence personified, which is something entirely new to human history. KUBA: That ‘I’ must give up ‘myself’ in order to allow ‘my’
deepest desire to become an actuality. VINEETO: Ha, once you are willing to say “‘I’ It is pure magic. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Funnily enough yesterday I was watching a TV show with Sonya and I was amazed by 1 particular scene, it was nothing to do with what was going on in the story but rather it was the sunlight reflecting off the waves in the ocean, it looked like a sheet of sparkling gold covering the top of the water, it was so delicious to take it all in. This gives some slight answer as to how Richard could sit and look out the window for hours. It is more that ‘I’ feel ‘I’ am not allowed to do that (even though it is ‘my’ deepest desire to live like that), that some unspoken but apparently very important task has to be done instead. That continuing to be ‘me’ takes precedence over such delight and wonder. VINEETO: I am amazed you are still so gullible whenever the ever-diminishing identity suggests something not only against common sense but also directly contrary to the actualism method (enjoying and appreciating). It’s cute, isn’t it! KUBA: The below is perhaps the most wonderful description that I can think of, this is what ‘I’ desire and yet it is so weird that clearly something in ‘me’ is resisting the possibility of living this:
VINEETO: Yes, I remember experiencing this, such an amazing experience – the discovering of this magical wonderland – that was right after my guardian had abdicated and I was home free. [Edit]: Actually, it was the description after I became fully actually free. KUBA: Weirdly enough ‘I’ am extremely optimistic about it being possible now… Even though clearly ‘I’ do not yet know the way forward. Because now I see that there is something that ‘I’ am doing/ being which prevents it from happening, which means this “something” can be uncovered! So in short rather than soldiering through this “desert of monumental proportions”
‘I’ can continue allowing this ‘process’ and locate the root of the resistance – of what is keeping
‘me’ from allowing ‘my’ deeply yearned for oblivion, meanwhile avoiding getting drawn into any side mission
(which I have just averted this morning haha). VINEETO: Ah, I am glad you decided not to follow the ‘dutiful’ suggestion of your ‘controller’/ ‘feeler’ – they are up to no good. KUBA: Ok so I see that at this point anything other than giving ‘myself’ permission to
allow it to happen is a side mission! VINEETO: Bullseye! Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Hi Vineeto, VINEETO: What I get from your answer – “It is the ‘weight’ of having to be ‘me’” – looks like good news to me. (…) KUBA: I have been looking at this the past few days, initially I tried to somewhat ‘push past’ this feeling but I realised that this is just ‘me’ running into that ‘invisible wall’ over and over again haha. I also tried to ‘ride it out’ but I notice that this feeling, it has unlimited energy, it seems it has no end… So then I changed my approach and began to consider that perhaps there is something to be found there, that perhaps this feeling contains the seed for ‘my’ undoing, so since last night I have been applying a fascinated attention to it. This morning I looked at this feeling and found ‘me’ at the core of ‘my’ being. What Richard wrote came to mind:
I have seen ‘myself’ like this before but this time I could see that the only way that this painful condition can end is for ‘me’ to die. Seeing this caused quite a strong visceral reaction in ‘me’, it sunk in exactly what has to happen, the only way out for ‘me’. So the door to ‘my’ destiny, to what ‘I’ desire the most is guarded by ‘my’ fear of death. I can see that this is what all the various ‘me’s’ desire, to cease ‘being’, and yet ‘I’ am kept in place by ‘my’ fear of death. This is why ‘humanity’ has made a pact to venerate suffering, to suffer through life whilst waiting for death to release ‘me’. The way out of this predicament is available, but it requires something to be done that ‘I’ cannot quite fathom doing/ allowing. The fear of death keeps both ‘me’ and ‘humanity’ in place, forever suffering. So it seems ‘I’ am contemplating that which is “not permissible”, not so much by the ‘wisdom’ of ‘humanity’ but rather by the very force of ‘my’ being. Just to add – although I wrote it is “not permissible” nevertheless it is exactly what ‘I’
am contemplating as an actual possibility, it is very thrilling, ‘I’ am going to die and this is exciting. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, So “the ‘weight’ of having to be ‘me’” has come to fruition – you have seen ‘me’ at ‘my’ very core and understood existentially that there is no solution whatsoever but for ‘you’ to give permission to – something which both ‘you’ and you desire most. It is very perspicacious to recognize that “‘humanity’ has made a pact to venerate suffering, to suffer through life whilst waiting for death to release ‘me’”, and you have so far stayed loyal to this pact. Now you refuse to suffer any longer and with this demonstrate that the pact is not unbreakable for everyone to do likewise. One thing you have not yet spelt out today, yet I suspect it is always there in the background since you wrote it on March 8 this year –
With the thrilling permission for ‘you’ to die and the passionate care to be innocence personified in place you have blessedly set in motion your demise – nothing can go wrong.
Cheers Vineeto
KUBA:
Actually, the correspondence Richard had on the AFT when he first went public is a perfect demonstration of
this, and the same for ‘Peter’ and ‘Vineeto’. What incredible push back against well-meaning fellow human
beings demonstrating a different way of doing things. Addendum: I guess Richard never experienced a single ‘bite’ though and was obviously physically safe throughout
all this discussion. So I wonder is it the same with ‘being’ naiveté, that of course there is a world of
identities that would demand one to be serious and yet it doesn’t have to count for anything at all. VINEETO: Indeed, Richard met plenty of doubt and opposition when he first wrote on the spiritual mailing lists (List A, a supposedly atheistic list) and List B (followers of J. Krishnamurti) but the most extensive and outright vicious witch-hunt started after the Direct Route was successfully opened, and the people in the real world felt a threatening wind that actualism would disrupt in their accustomed (malicious/ sorrowful and highly valued) way of life. This was never spelt out, or even recognized, but their actions of pulling out all the stops of civilized decency revealed their actions as an attempt to stop peace on earth in its tracks. It went for over two years and Richard not only “never experienced a single ‘bite’”
but also had a lot of fun and skill exposing the three main instigators (No. 6, No. 4 and No. 2 including their
multiple sock-puppets) plus the two list-trolls with their multiple sock-puppets (No. 5 and No. 37) as the poltroons,
liars and persecutors they were by demonstrating their own internal contradictions – hanging them by their own
rope, so to speak. You can read the correspondence I know from experience that “‘being’ naiveté” takes courage to start with, once you leave the safety of your familiar surrounding – it also takes daring and caring – then you focus on the thrilling aspect and soon the jitters will wither away. Then you start getting into the grove of being naïve, experience the joy and remember to appreciative the adventure, and allow the universe to live you more and more, and the confidence of the palpable benignity and benevolence of pure intent is your guide, and carries you all the way.
You might also enjoy the next one –
Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: And I am scared of this, because I have seen just how quickly the so-called goodness flips into malice, that I am a friend as long as I “play ball” and then very quickly I become foe. Actually the correspondence Richard had on the AFT when he first went public is a perfect demonstration of this, and the same for ‘Peter’ and ‘Vineeto’. What incredible push back against well meaning fellow human beings demonstrating a different way of doing things. This is certainly what I have enjoyed immensely when talking with you Vineeto, that there is no
malice that I could accidentally trigger, it is so safe. And of course at times you will discover something that will
trigger ‘me’ but that is ‘my’ business. It is an impression which has burned itself deep into ‘me’,
seeing what it is like to interact with somebody that will never ever ‘bite’. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, I appreciate your perspicacity – and it gives you lived examples how you yourself can not only
survive but thrive without the instinctual passions operating, in a felicitous and innocuous way, especially as you
told me in a memorable post that “in short what ‘I’ deeply and passionately care about is to be innocence
personified.” I am also amazed how quickly being scared of the (imagined) consequences of being naïve have
evaporated after you “allowed ‘myself’ to deeply feel and fully divulge this feeling”. KUBA: Ok so I am starting to understand what is being spoken about with regards to being out from control. In that so far the success of the actualism method has relied on ‘my’ ongoing imitative felicity and innocuity, this is what delivers an in control virtual freedom. It is ‘my’ involvement each moment again which ensures a consistent virtual peace and harmony. VINEETO: If you mean “imitative” in the sense that you imitate actuality, being naively happy and harmless is indeed imitating the actual experience of a PCE until ‘your’ demise. KUBA: And now having gained confidence in the ultimate beneficence of the universe ‘I’ can allow an ongoing felicity and innocuity and an ongoing peace and harmony which is no longer of ‘my’ doing. VINEETO: Ah, now I understand the way you meant “imitative” – not instigated/ generated by the ‘controller’ but pure intent given free reign by the naïve beer. KUBA: I twigged onto this when I caught myself planning for the BJJ session which I am to teach tonight. And then I realised that I already know that it will go well, that ‘I’ don’t have to be vigilant anymore and that instead ‘I’ can allow the session to run itself. And that not only is this safe but even better than ‘I’ can otherwise accomplish through vigilance. It seems this is the direction to travel, that it is through having confidence in the ultimate
beneficence of the universe that ‘I’ allow the perfection and purity which has nothing to do with ‘me’ to
live this life more and more. That is to say ‘I’ can step out from control. VINEETO: And this is truly wonderful. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Hehe yes and to add ‘my’ days of trying to “be a saviour” are also done, this I can say with confidence. Because how could ‘I’ “be a saviour” when ‘I’ know that ‘I’ am rotten to ‘my’ very core. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, My apologies for my dire error of misreading your last message. It’s delightful to learn that your “days of trying to ”be a saviour“ are also done”, just like that. KUBA: My post was rather like looking at this huge array of buttons that exist on ‘my’ dashboard and trying to suss out experientially how to trigger the one called “altruism”, what does it looks like, how does it operate, where could it be located, etc. I don’t know which of the buttons you are going to choose from your “dashboard” –
whichever it is will need a deep and passionate caring to give up what you hold dearest, your ‘self’. VINEETO: I read some writing from Richard today that might be in accord with your previously stated deep and passionate caring about to be innocence personified –
Viz.:
Cheers Vineeto
KUBA: Hi Vineeto, I will go in bits because there is a lot in your message which clicks. I really like how you wrote this – “intimacy is not assertive but inclusive, enticing, friendly, benevolent”. And with authority ‘I’ am doing exactly that – asserting ‘myself’. Asserting ‘myself’ immediately cuts the possibility of intimacy at the root, this is exactly the ‘edge’ I was talking about.
This clicked in such an obvious way, I think it’s because of what you wrote about intimacy not being assertive. In that when I allow intimacy with another then I cannot help but take them into consideration, whereas when I assert myself there is an absence of caring and consideration. But I never saw this before, that by asserting myself I am getting in the way of intimacy and therefore peace and harmony. It can be such a small step too that I missed it in the past, where I assert myself and turn the situation into my way vs their way, now it’s a battle and peace and harmony is nowhere to be found. VINEETO: Hi Kuba, It’s cute because you yourself gave me the clue –
Remember, whenever you are confronted with two (affective) non-reconcilable alternatives – in this case being assertive or powerless as a male identity – there is always a third alternative which you usually only discover when you are back to feeling good. This particular third alternative now allows you to discover more of imitating actuality – consideration, caring, closeness, naiveté (first experienced as vulnerability) and, of course, sensuousness. As such it is not “my way vs their way” but the way which enables intimacy for both of you. KUBA: I never thought to question assertiveness, in fact I even remember as a kid in school being taught how it is so very important… Also to tie it into Richard’s quote about preference, if I am asserting myself it means that I have already made it serious, which means it is no longer a self-less inclination, it is now a self-centred urge. This is exactly how I have observed conversations turn into arguments too. VINEETO: Yes, you will be surprised how much effect it has on your whole outlook in life when you deliberately and consistently replace any self-centred urge which occurs with what is to happen as just being a preference. This quote from Richard might give you encouragement –
KUBA: I can’t believe I’ve never seen this, that the very action of asserting myself is rotten. VINEETO: It was obviously the perfect time to see it, now that you are ready to put it into action. KUBA: It makes sense now, there is a seriousness and a
forcefulness to it, it has aggression at its root. VINEETO: Indeed and a ‘man’ has to be aggressive or so you are taught. You discovered the way to channel the affective energy of aggression into affective felicitous and innocuous action. It’s all so marvellous. Cheers Vineeto
KUBA:
This has been on my mind a lot, contemplating what actual innocence is referring to. And although ‘I’ cannot be actually innocent it has given me a fuller understanding of what harmlessness and happiness is all about. I think this had a big part in allowing me to locate ‘pure’ felicitous and innocuous feelings. With the above in mind I have been sorting through those feelings (good and bad) which were hiding under the apparent “feeling good“ umbrella, and yet they were “nocent“, both to ‘me’ and to others. And I found that only the genuine felicitous and innocuous feelings are free of this propensity to inflict hurt, in whichever direction. So it’s quite interesting, I can’t put it into words very well yet, but it is the focus on harmlessness, whilst holding in mind what actual innocence means, which allowed me to sort through the various feelings and begin to let go of those which had the capacity to inflict hurt. And doing this I have located these ‘pure’ felicitous and innocuous feelings, which are like a “fresh summer breeze“. And it is so clear to me now that one can only be happy if one is also harmless, because to inflict harm is to experience / ‘be’ harm. It reminds me of Richard’s descriptions of actual freedom, this one in particular has been coming to mind :
That last bit is just… wow! VINEETO: Dear Kuba, Ah, what great outcome of your persistent contemplation to get to the core of what innocence actually is. It seems you have come full circle to the time when you first wrote that what you dearly want is “to be innocence personified“ –
When you look back through your journal, many obstacles and objections had to be overcome and ‘secrets’ to be exposed to yourself until you developed sincerity to a fine art that would not allow you to leave any stone unturned or any dirt under the carpet. For instance, you had to experience, and then honestly admit to yourself that you harboured aggression and chip away at the much-prized assertiveness. You said in a previous post –
This is very perceptive – perspicacious, penetratingly observant, to be precise. One can only really see that, acknowledge that, when one is no longer invested in a self-serving image-presenting deception, when facts and actuality are one’s guide and value. And now, as you say here This persistent and utterly honest sincerity enabled you to now “have located these ‘pure’ felicitous and innocuous feelings, which are like a “fresh summer breeze“.“ And this is truly marvellous. Cheers Vineeto
SYD: You also wrote that my comment on “a quality of
‘innocence’” is a “theoretical contemplation”, but this is not true as I did not
describe it outside of an ongoing experience of such quality (the straightforwardness of acknowledging the facts of
the matter). But again, I need time to comprehensively look into all these feelings standing in the way. The compass
is still stuck on some ‘good’ feelings (and thus ‘bad’ feelings, cf. Richard on ‘addiction’ to James).
Presently, I’m applying dollops of sincerity (including experiencing how “I” am those feelings), along
with the intent to be genuinely happy (à la the ‘happiness’ aspect; VINEETO: To start with the first sentence of your previous post –
Can you see that you wrote ‘innocence’ in scare-quotes and then equated it (“by definition”) with being sincere? There would be no need for Richard to use a different word, if innocence and sincerity were the
same, wouldn’t there? And there would be no need for you to put the word in scare-quotes, as one puts ‘I’ in
scare quotes to refer to the purity-corrupting identity, if you weren’t somewhat aware, somewhere in the back of
your mind, that you are indeed perverting and cheapening the meaning of the purity of innocence, thereby brushing
aside what Richard said – “innocence is entirely new to human history”. It is pertinent to understand that innocence does not, and never has, “by definition naturally [existed] in being sincere”? In your tendency to make descriptions of an actual freedom your own as an identity, sincerity goes out the window. For emphasis – ‘you’ can never ever enter actuality where nothing dirty can get in. What ‘you’ presently do instead is diminish it, cheapen it, corrupt it, in order that it may be possible for ‘you’ to achieve it. For actuality to become apparent ‘you’ will have to disappear, and there will never ever be innocence either in scare-quotes or “by definition” for ‘you’ – the instinctual-passional entity which is rotten to the core. It would be advisable to develop some sensitivity and nuanced way of thinking and acting, taking note of the differences in the words and the reason why Richard was so particularly careful in his descriptions. Such sensitivity as in general consideration, tact and delicacy, respect, discernment (outside your accustomed, automatically ‘self’-centric way of thinking) can stand you in good stead on the way to becoming more harmless. I like to make one more point while on the subject of sensitivity, consideration and respect – when you copy a 1000+ word text from Geoffrey and publish it on the forum for everyone’s benefit, please do not alter the text and manipulate the first impression for people by yellow-highlighting your own personal preference. It is neither considerate nor respectful to both Geoffrey and the readers. If you post a quote because you have a personal insight or comment, write it underneath. It’s akin to selling someone a second-hand book with the text already underlined by the previous owner, interfering with the reader gaining a first clean impression now influenced by the preferences of the previous owner. This is even more important with a report from an actually free person to maintain the purity of the original reporting from the actual world, which is generally not experienced by feeling beings and therefore can give them valuable insight when they read it with their whole ‘being’ which allows the possibility that this could happen –
SYD: This ‘innocence’ is not a feeling (as in, “Whoa, look at me, I’m such an innocent angel”) or a moral-feel-good-ism, but a simple matter-of-fact quality of how “I” can approach everything perceived or felt. VINEETO: The word ‘sincere’ will do just fine for this experience – genuine
sincerity is void of ego-enhancing pride else it is not sincerity. The word ‘sincere’ will do just fine for this
experience – genuine sincerity is void of ego-enhancing pride else it is not sincerity. It is also genuine
attentiveness as defined in Richard’s above quoted article. SYD: ‘I’ am also naturally cunning, however, so allowing
this quality naturally involves recognizing and ceasing all those should-nots, can-nots, will-nots, etc. inasmuch as
they mask the simple facts of the situation. VINEETO: Exactly. It involves all the tricks ‘I’ get up to in order so that ‘you’ can remain in situ. Therefore I made you aware that when you put innocence in scare quotes it is a watering-down process, perverting the purity of the meaning of innocence (as in “entirely new to human history”). * SYD: Also, the ‘bind’ makes sense for instinctual passions.
It worked for panic, back in December. Neither repressing nor expressing (of which there are innumerable cunning
forms) works with any instinctual passion, to weaken them.
VINEETO: Just to make it clear, actualism is not a materialistic, therapeutically ‘self’-healing technique. SYD: I’ve read the whole sequence from July 13 2004 to July 15
2004a and still I’m unable to comprehend how neither repressing nor expressing strong passions (via, for instance,
the innumerable cunning expressions thereof) can be considered materialistic or therapeutic. VINEETO: When I wrote this I was under the misapprehension, which you clarified at the beginning of this post, that harmlessness was not yet part of your intent, having labelled it ‘moralistic’. Without the sincere intent to apply the actualism method as intended (feeling good being both happy and harmless), just picking some techniques from it would only be a materialistic, therapeutically ‘self’-healing technique. Cheers Vineeto
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